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» One Touch Football - Archive » World » Castro: the end of an era (Page 9)

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Author Topic: Castro: the end of an era
Antonio Gramsci
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It's true. I have no class at all.
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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
Nathan, why is it when statistics are good (e.g. infant mortality) it's a triumph of the revolution, and when statistics are bad (e.g. calories),
I wouldn't say that any of the statistics are bad apart from the consumer items (which it is arguable as to whether reduced consumer items are good or bad)

The calorific intake is absolutely fine (remarkable considering the embargo), the infant mortality and literacy are, again, excellent considering the lack of supplies and equipment.

Indeed, these statistics are better thna I thought they were. The only one I don't know about it the export figures which I assume are poor but with no other countries to compare it to, it is difficult to say

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Nathan HelenaHandcart
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I wasn't doubting the stats in this case; my comments were a response to Inca comment:

quote:
I also found it interesting that the Castro-era figures, which were improvements (or very similar, in the case of caloric intake and automobiles) were presented in grey, which would seem to visually indicate failure.
Hence my sarcasm was directed at the LA times, not statistics. My scepticism towards those is a whole different topic.
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Bored Of The Dance
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I don't know whether you are answering my post but I was broadly in agreement with your points and I was addressing AG's comments.
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E10Rifle
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Maybe I'm just not that sophisticated at reading statistics, but even through the LA Times' biased prism, those charts reflect pretty well on Cuba. I'd love to see them compared with the rest of the region, as if any US newspapers would ever bother.

And of course the US blockade is an issue in all this, because it's the one thing that people in the US (and to a lesser extent Europe) can actually try to influence. Make this an issue with your candidates in this year's elections, voters. Provide at least some counterweight to the Miami freaks, because if you don't, nothing will change. The Exile nutters are relying on no one else giving much of a shit - it's one of the reasons they've got away with it for so long.

[ 21.02.2008, 00:32: Message edited by: E10Rifle ]

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Inca
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My representative, Henry Waxman, is against the embargo.
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Rory Bunk
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My father-in-law began work as an electrician's apprentice the same week Castro took power in Cuba and finished selling off the business he'd built for himself since then in this same week in which Fidel steps down to his own retirement.

Carry on.

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Antonio Gramsci
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Can we go back about three pages for a second? There was a point in the discussion about nationalizations where someone said or implied (I think) that Attlee-era nationalizations weren't really socialist because control at the factory floor level never really changed.

But has a nationalization ever led to changes in workplace democracy? Nationalization means just that - the nation (or more accurately the state) takes over the management function from capital. Workers themselves just become (as it were) cogs in somebody else's machine.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any examples of this.

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
The Exile nutters are relying on no one else giving much of a shit
or no-one else being particularly well informed on the issue
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ooh aah
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I more than implied it to be honest.

Examples of workplace democracy are few and far between. I think you'd have to look at what happened in the ealy stages of the revolution in Russia, I think there was a bit of it there, before the Bolsheviks were able to tighten their grip on the country. And I gave the example of Spain during the war. In Barcelona the workers controlled the workplace for about 9 months before things turned nasty in 1937.

Interestingly Labour did get quite close to establishing workplace democracy in the 70's. It was in their 74 manifesto I think, and Tony Benn was made Secretary of Industry specifically to lead this project. But Wilson bottled it when the likes of Dennis Healy objected, and Benn was moved to Energy.

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Nathan HelenaHandcart
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That's why there was a big debate in the Labour party between Morrisonian nationalisation versus municipalisation, or co-operation. At the time, being bigger was the very thing, economies of scale, thrusting modernity required units aggregate together, so when the choice about what form of non-capital structure to use, the one which seemed most 'corporate' gelled with the civil service mission to accrue power to the centre and we got what we got.
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Spearmint Rhino
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quote:
But has a nationalization ever led to changes in workplace democracy? Nationalization means just that - the nation (or more accurately the state) takes over the management function from capital. Workers themselves just become (as it were) cogs in somebody else's machine.
Everyone's machine (including themselves).
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Antonio Gramsci
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Nathan - I don't think I've ever heard the term municipalization in this kind of context: what does it mean?

SR - at the level of ownership, yes, but not at the level of management. If you really think that ownership by workers or the people = socialism, then come on over here. Our teachers' pension fund owns damn near everything (including the football team).

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Nathan HelenaHandcart
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AG - most public utilities in the Uk were developed by local authorities, much as with many US communities. Most councils had their own power, water and telephone companies. These were already in non-private hands, but the vogue was for scaling up, and civil servants - especially the Treasury - despise the power this left in the hands of people who were not like them. As a result, these 1000 blooming flowers were in the amalgamated into one state-run corporation. The odd exception like Kingston-upon-Hull stayed out, with the result that when the council floated the company in 2000, the money they got for it got them a massive windfall, and they built the new stadium there for the football and one of the rugby league teams.

Good piece on workplace democracy here

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Antonio Gramsci
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So simply ownership by local government?

DO you think worker-owner relations were ay better in Kingston-upon-Hull (or any other examples of this) than elsewhere? Because I can sort of see where this might be preferable to nationalization on that front, but it wouldn't necessarily be so.

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