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» One Touch Football - Archive » Football » The Walesathon is dead to me now. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: The Walesathon is dead to me now.
Harry Carpenter
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Well,when you give us a well thought out argument based on clear footballing principles like that, it really is hard to argue.

Oh hang on... that's a crock of anecdotal bullshit based on your own personal prejudices.Silly me!

Savage is a Wanker - totally agree. Unfortunately if you don't want any wankers in your chosen side you will be reduced to watching 3-and-in in the local park (and I have to break it to you that that fat kid from number 37 who is in goal shot a cat with an airgun last week so he's dropped).

Footballers, especially relatively successful ones, have a tendency towards wankerdom. International managers are paid to get around that and have the gravitas to sort it out and not indulge in a media battle of egos.

Toshack and squad spirit - let's ignore the possibility that the single most damaging thing for squad spirit may be Toshack's cult of personality and accept the unproven premise that Savage and Thatcher (and all the others he has fallen out with) were the problem.

We have to look at some kind of ideal intersection of squad spirit and squad quality, we could pick 23 players from Division 4, the conference and the LOW ( I sometimes think this is his ideal scenario, "Look at the players I've got to work with" he'd cry) who all think Tosh is super (sorry "have a great squad spirit") but we'd get fucked up the arse every game in international football!

Collins' quality - yes, compared to Kevin Ratcliffe, he's shit. Are you suggesting we pick Ratcliffe? If so, there is at least an internal logic to your argument.However, we are discussing if he should be picked over a centre-half whose most recent experience was getting relegated with Franchise and has been snapped up by LEYTON FUCKING ORIENT! On balance, I'd go with the younger guy with 40 or so games in the top two divisions.

The over-riding principle of picking an international squad should not be "He'll be glad of a game" or "He'll not answer back"!Sometimes it's a fuck sight harder job than that and I'm not sure Toshack realises that or, if he does, that he actually cares.

[ 10.08.2006, 22:12: Message edited by: Harry Truscott ]

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Jorge Porbillas
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Oh hang on... that's a crock of anecdotal bullshit based on your own personal prejudices.Silly me!

I beg your pardon?

Savage is a wanker who has made it abundantly clear prior to Tosh's apointment that he wouldn't play for him - in the very first squad which Savage was called into under Tosh he did nothing but stir the shit - not anecdotal but fact - I've spoken to Wales squad members in the hotel that evening and Savage also admitted as much in his infamous spat with Leighton James on Real Radio.

quote:
ternational managers are paid to get around that and have the gravitas to sort it out and not indulge in a media battle of egos.
Toshack hasn't fought any battles in the media - the only reason it comes up in each and every press conference is that Savage's media mates (I won't name them but PM me if you want) keep asking the questions and Tosh has to find a different way of saying that Savage has retired and hasn't contacted him since.

quote:
Savage and Thatcher (and all the others he has fallen out with)
Savage - we've covered
Thatcher - an Englishman who once Wales were on the verge of Euro 2004 discovered his Welsh roots - an international cap works wonders when negotiating new contracts and an appearabnce in a major championships - well, when your Welsh agent puts it like that, well, who would turn down the chance of a cap?

(all the others) - well, apart from Danny Collins I can't think of any. Collins is overrated - three seasons ago he was playing for Buckley Town in the Cymru Alliance - a few caps later and he feels he can pick and choose his games - fuck him. He's not proved his ability for either Wales or Sunderland and his replacement has not been Partridge (who I agree is equally shit) but Gabbiddon and Nyatanga - forgive me but I think Nyatanga is a far bnetter prospect than mr big-boots from Buckley.

I think the young squad Tosh is putting together is very, very promising, and if the spirit of the squad means losing shit-stirring wankers ike Savage then that's fine by me.

Oh, and the England shirt was spotted by a very good friend of mine who asked him what it was all about - Savage knows my mate from numerous Wales away trips - "blame his mum" said Savage - the kid's mum's Welsh too ... say no more.

If Tosh couldn't deal with wankers he wouldn't pick Bellamy and Koumas - it's wankers who disrupt the rest of the squad that Tosh won't tolerate and I, as a fan, will happily do without them.

[ 10.08.2006, 22:22: Message edited by: George Berry's Afro ]

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Jorge Porbillas
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... oh, and I reckon Ratcliffe could do a better job than Collins could, even today ..
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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
Savage is a wanker who has made it abundantly clear prior to Tosh's apointment that he wouldn't play for him - in the very first squad which Savage was called into under Tosh he did nothing but stir the shit - not anecdotal but fact - I've spoken to Wales squad members in the hotel that evening
And yet other Wales squad members still want Savage back, how can that be explained?

quote:
Savage also admitted as much in his infamous spat with Leighton James on Real Radio.
I'll have to dig my copy of that out as I remember no such "admission". To be honest the only thing that Realradiogate proved was that Toshacks "media mates" were as embarrasing as Savage is in person.


quote:
Toshack hasn't fought any battles in the media
No, come on, read that one back to yourself. You, I and anyone with BBC Wales access knows that's bullshit.

quote:
the only reason it comes up in each and every press conference is that Savage's media mates (I won't name them but PM me if you want)
I hardly need a PM to work that one out, both sides have their champions and apologists. That just proves that Welsh sport and media is a dysfunctional little village.


quote:
Tosh has to find a different way of saying that Savage has retired and hasn't contacted him since.)
Savage "retired" after the Norn iron red card and still played again, you have to handle pricks like him sometimes instead of taking them on in a primadonna contest.

I will never argue that Savage is blameless, just that Toshack is equally culpable and I expect more from a manager in his fifties than a fuckwit current player.

By the way, where was Toshack's fierce loyalty to the Welsh international side in 1994?


quote:
Thatcher - an Englishman who once Wales were on the verge of Euro 2004 discovered his Welsh roots - an international cap works wonders when negotiating new contracts and an appearabnce in a major championships - well, when your Welsh agent puts it like that, well, who would turn down the chance of a cap?
Ah, it's all Andy Evans' fault now is it? So, we don't pick any Anglos then? I'm fine with that principle but we always have and we probably always will. Will you be making the same complaints about Nyatanga in a few years ( "Ah, you see he only signed up with Wales because we got in early and he thought England wouldn't be interested").


Modern international football is, unfortunately, littered with players with at best a tenuous relationship with the countries they play for. A good manager can work them in to a squad (Scolari with Deco,whose choice to play for Portugal was a major problem in the country) but Toshack (or his cheerleaders) appears to have come over all Twin Town trailer, "'e's not fucking Welsh!"

quote:
(all the others) - well, apart from Danny Collins I can't think of any.
I'll get a list of the premature or surprising retirees since Toshack's appointment as well as some of the strange omissions (Oster, Stock etc. None of them world-beaters but worth a look (or another look) at when we're scouring Orient, Gillingham,Oxford and Brizzle City's reserves)


quote:
(Collins... replacement has not been Partridge (who I agree is equally shit) but Gabbiddon and Nyatanga - forgive me but I think Nyatanga is a far bnetter prospect than mr big-boots from Buckley.
Count up the number of players in a squad, there's 20+. Partridge is in that squad as last-choice centre-half so he is the one keeping Collins out.


quote:
Oh, and the England shirt was spotted by a very good friend of mine who asked him what it was all about - Savage knows my mate from numerous Wales away trips - "blame his mum" said Savage - the kid's mum's Welsh too ... say no more.
Yeah, and my dad's bigger than his dad. So fucking what?

[ 10.08.2006, 23:28: Message edited by: Harry Truscott ]

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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
... oh, and I reckon Ratcliffe could do a better job than Collins could, even today ..
Thank you for charging through the comedy door I thoughtfully left ajar.
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Jorge Porbillas
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Not sure what you mean by the "my dad's bigger than your dad comment" - might you explain?

[ 10.08.2006, 23:37: Message edited by: George Berry's Afro ]

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Harry Carpenter
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Well, my dad is 6'6". I can't see Savage's dad topping that.

Or did you think I meant your mate's dad? Is he a big fella then?

[ 10.08.2006, 23:48: Message edited by: Harry Truscott ]

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Jorge Porbillas
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quote:
And yet other Wales squad members still want Savage back, how can that be explained?
Not sure who they may be, though it's not the point I was making. My point is that Savage's shit-stirring isn't anecdotal or media spin - other squad members have said as much and Savage has admitted both on Real Radio and on the BBC Wales interview he asked to do after he "retired" that he has no time for Toshack.

quote:
To be honest the only thing that Realradiogate proved was that Toshacks "media mates" were as embarrasing as Savage is in person.
Again, I'm not sure how you work this one out - I'm no huge fan of Leighton, but when Savage said Leighton wasn't as good a player as himself, well Sav made the biggest single-most stupidest comment I've heard from him - and that says a lot.
Yes, I'm sure Leighton is likely to back Tosh in an argument with Savage, but I'd hardly call him a media cheerleader.

quote:
Savage "retired" after the Norn iron red card and still played again
I don't think he retired after the Norn Iron match - after all it was still his bezzy mate in charge back then - he "retired" after being left out of the Austria squad.

quote:
I will never argue that Savage is blameless, just that Toshack is equally culpable and I expect more from a manager in his fifties than a fuckwit current player.
I'm not saying Tosh is blameless either - I'm certainly with you on the Oster omission - but if the manager thinks the squad is a better place without one egotistical prick like Savage, then I'm happy to go along with his decision.

As for "premature retirees", I can only think of Gary Speed as one I'd want back and one who is still performing week in week out (Savage excepted as my reasons for not wanting him back seem pretty obvious!)

quote:
Ah, it's all Andy Evans' fault now is it? So, we don't pick any Anglos then? I'm fine with that principle but we always have and we probably always will. Will you be making the same complaints about Nyatanga in a few years ( "Ah, you see he only signed up with Wales because we got in early and he thought England wouldn't be interested").
Not quite what I said, but certainly Thatcher showed no interest in Wales prior to being alerted to his Welshness coupled with our relatively succesful Euro 2004 campaign.
Nyatanga on the other hand has always played for Wales - from U17s right through - same with Earnshaw and other non-Welshmen.

I ca think of many who have shown more passion than first generation Welsh players - John Robinson being a prime example - I have no beef with Anglos per se. Thatcher's cynicsm seems obvious though.
I'm not blaming Andy - which agent wouldn't want a better deal for his client - but I don't have much sympathy for Thatcher.

quote:
Count up the number of players in a squad, there's 20+. Partridge is in that squad as last-choice centre-half so he is the one keeping Collins out.
Okay I'll concede that he's kept out of the squad by Partridge - but it was Collins himself who didn't want to be considered for the Basque and Trini games because he wasn't brought on against Paraguay.

As for comedy doors being left ajar - well you're obviously far cleverer than I ... blimey I just thought it was a funny little comment to add in there.

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Jorge Porbillas
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quote:
Well, my dad is 6'6". I can't see Savage's dad topping that.

Or did you think I meant your mate's dad? Is he a big fella then?

You've completely lost me - I was trying to say that the England shirt wasn't anecdotal - what were you trying to say?

[ 10.08.2006, 23:58: Message edited by: George Berry's Afro ]

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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
My point is that Savage's shit-stirring isn't anecdotal or media spin - other squad members have said as much and Savage has admitted both on Real Radio and on the BBC Wales interview
And my point was for all Savage's "shit-stirring" which allegedly "damages squad morale" so much, other senior players want him back.

I do not recall these "admissions" you refer to, despite listening to the Real Radio tapes in utter despair many times (try playing them back-to-back with the Gareth Thomas Scrum V interview. It says more about Welsh sport than I would like to admit).


Wayne Rooney stirs a lot of shit in the england squad calling other members "flash cunts" and trying to fight them on the pitch and in the dressing room and by saying he was set-up with a bookie by an England team-mate. He still deserves to tbe in the squad.


quote:
I don't think he retired after the Norn Iron match
Savage said he was retiring (or considering retiring) that night/the morning after, the great big girl's blouse.


quote:
Thatcher's cynicsm seems obvious though.
I'm not blaming Andy - which agent wouldn't want a better deal for his client - but I don't have much sympathy for Thatcher.

I do to a certain extent, whatever his pickiness when it came to turning up for Wales it was less marked than Giggs' historical record and was in a period when Thatcher had a series of injuries. It would appear that Toshack called him gutless in a phone call and made a cheap anglo shot to his media buddies. Thatcher always played with commitment for Wales, normally too much in fact.


quote:
As for comedy doors being left ajar - well you're obviously far cleverer than I ... blimey I just thought it was a funny little comment to add in there
And I was thanking you. I am Toshack to your Keegan, majestically rising to flick the ball down for your (to be frank, scuffed) finish.
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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, my dad is 6'6". I can't see Savage's dad topping that.

Or did you think I meant your mate's dad? Is he a big fella then?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've completely lost me - I was trying to say that the England shirt wasn't anecdotal - what were you trying to say?

That it doesn't fucking matter. Savage is an arse who can dress his children in even viler clothes than he himself wears (and you don't get much viler than an england shirt) but it's irrelevant to his being in the squad.

BTW, surely as you've told it as an anecdote, then it's "anecdotal", non? That doesn't mean it's necessarily untrue, that would be "apocryphal".

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Jorge Porbillas
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quote:
I do not recall these "admissions" you refer to, despite listening to the Real Radio tapes in utter despair many times (try playing them back-to-back with the Gareth Thomas Scrum V interview. It says more about Welsh sport than I would like to admit).
He admitted to not wanting Mr Toshack (as he calls him), to not taking kindly to his training methods nor his choice of evening meal. He admitted to going to the garage accross the road for crisps and chocolate - against Toshack's wishes.

quote:
... try playing them back-to-back with the Gareth Thomas Scrum V interview
Pure comedy genius!

quote:
Wayne Rooney stirs a lot of shit in the england squad calling other members "flash cunts" and trying to fight them on the pitch
Wayne Rooney is a bit better than Savage though - probably why Tosh puts up with Bellamy.

quote:
It would appear that Toshack called him gutless in a phone call and made a cheap anglo shot to his media buddies.
Now who's using anecdotal evidence?

quote:
I am Toshack to your Keegan, majestically rising to flick the ball down for your (to be frank, scuffed) finish.
But every goal counts - just ask Iwan Roberts [Wink]
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Jorge Porbillas
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quote:
Savage is an arse who can dress his children in even viler clothes than he himself wears (and you don't get much viler than an england shirt) but it's irrelevant to his being in the squad.
Nope, but it doesn't do much for his claims to being the proudest Welshman in Wales who would do anything for his country - anything that is bar telling his kid to wear a Wales top!

quote:

BTW, surely as you've told it as an anecdote, then it's "anecdotal", non? That doesn't mean it's necessarily untrue, that would be "apocryphal".

Ah ... right, I see, sorry - my mistake.

<note to self: must improve English before arguing!>

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Jorge Porbillas
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and to retun [slightly] to the original topic ...

quote:
Where is that U-21 game being played now?
It seems this game will be played in Waalwijk, Holland

[ 11.08.2006, 00:35: Message edited by: George Berry's Afro ]

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Harry Carpenter
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So Savage's "admissions" which you originally said centred around "not wanting to play for Toshack" and "shit-stirring in the squad" now comes down to the fact that he admitted buying chocolate and crisps instead of eating the fried plantains Toshack proscribed? Even the fuller story that he brought back bags of the stuff for the rest of the squad hardly justifies an end to his international career does it?

Rooney is undoubtedly better than Savage but these things are relative. He is one of a pool of 50 or so top-flight players england have to call on (admittedly the most talented but given his goal-scoring record against injuries & suspensions for them , perhaps not the most important). Savage is one of less than ten such players for Wales.

I will admit some supposition on the exact nature of the call betwen Toshack and Thatcher, can we agree that my guess is generally accepted to be accurate (again, Toshack has hinted so enough himself).

I cannot comment on your claims that Iwan Roberts is a reliable witness on goal scoring, given that I have only seen him play for Wales.

[ 11.08.2006, 00:47: Message edited by: Harry Truscott ]

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