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» One Touch Football - Archive » Music » It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) (Page 11)

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Author Topic: It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
Pants
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quote:
'The Holy Bible' is mediocre and way too contrived. Their first album is far and away their best.
This goes neck-and-neck with Hobbes' "Hot cross buns are rubbish" as Wrongest Thing Written On OTF This Month.

Which bit do you think is so very 'Wrong', Rhino? The Holy Bible thing or the first album thing?

Totally agree that Hobbes is bonkers to diss hot cross buns.

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Spearmint Rhino
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Generation Terrorists was a relative disappointment, produced, studio-smoothed and sterilised to within an inch of its life, and over-long. It would make a decent single album. Far from being 'mediocre', The Holy Bible is one of the five greatest albums ever made, maybe even one of the one greatest albums ever made.
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TV's 'Mr P'
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quote:
What did you make of the '4REAL' incident, TVMP?
When it happened, like many I thought it unbelievably stupid, and was, for a while, (even more) dismissive about the Manics' tactics: I later had to concede its power as a 'gesture', though, no matter how apparently misguided in its bravado - especially when contrasted with Wire's idiotic outbursts. (But, in keeping with the cynicism within which I held the group back then, I recall making some contrived remark about its being likely the most potent statement the Manics would ever make.)

Obviously, in light of what we (ie, those of us who knew nothing of his problems at the start) were soon to learn about Richey Edwards, the deed took on a whole different slant: ie, '4REAL' was no longer an extreme statement of 'stick it up the media', so much as a very protracted warning that this might be the beginning of the end. (With Richey, there have always seemed one or two parallels to be drawn with Ian Curtis' final months. This is not to say that I necessarily think...etc, etc.)

[ 25.03.2008, 11:48: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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Disney Girl
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REM at the Albert Hall last night were pretty good. Glad I wasn't one of the mugs who coughed up loads of dosh for one of the more expensive seats as it was really just a promo for the new album (as well as the fund raiser for the ICA)with a handful of older songs thrown in. Mr Stipe is becoming a bit of a raconteur as he gets older! Funny bloke.

90 minutes all in including one encore. New stuff sounded good though.

Support were a mixed bag. 'The Foals' were OK but not really up my current straza and remind me of too many other bands, 'Duke Spirit' were OK but I don't really get what the fuss is about them. Robyn Hitchcock did an impressive acoustic set given the location.

All in all a better Bank Holiday Monday evening then usual. F**king expensive bar at that place!

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Spearmint Rhino
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quote:
'4REAL' was no longer an extreme statement of 'stick it up the media', so much as a very protracted warning that this might be the beginning of the end.
Nah, I don't buy that reading of it at all, the 'foreshadowing' interpretation. It was what it was. He showed me the scars afterwards and he was laughing about it.
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Harry Carpenter
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The fact that he laughed about it at the time doesn't at all stop it being potentially an indicator of the problems ahead.
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Lucy Waterman It Be
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quote:
not only is "cocoa shunter" funny, which is one up on "I hope he dies" straight away, but it's quite clearly a key part of a joke. Howe is so dopey and inert that he'll allow Morris to call him a "trenchant buffoon" who "looks ridiculous in that fashionwear", going on and on without interruption. Only a bizarre slur that might be racist/homophobic wakes him from the yet-another-discussion-show, in-it-for-the-money stupor that Morris is satirising. "Cocoa shunter" is unfortunate but essential.
I always thought Darcus Howe came out of that quite well. It looks as though he realises Morris is looking for a reaction, and doesn't bother to give him one.

Isn't "cocoa shunter" just referring to Robert Elms being a cokehead?

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Spearmint Rhino
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quote:
The fact that he laughed about it at the time doesn't at all stop it being potentially an indicator of the problems ahead.
That's true. But the usual 'inevitability' storyline people apply to Richey is a bit too Hollywood for me. I know loads of people who cut themselves up, and they live with it (fairly) comfortably. You can be like that and have a sustainable equilibrium. Conversely you can never harm yourself in the slightest, then suddenly break down.
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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but still thought of them as no more than a bnad that had produced some excellent singles and live performances.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What more do you want from a rock'n'roll band? A cure for cancer?

Woah, SR, I think you are coming out all guns blazing with this and I am on your side as far as the Manics music is concerned. IT wasn't a criticism

I put that statement to compare with when they released "The Holy Bible" when I thought of them as an excellent live band who had just released an almost-perfect album.

The two before had great singles but weren't as good as albums as THB by a long shot

[ 25.03.2008, 14:06: Message edited by: Bored Of The Dance ]

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TV's 'Mr P'
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I appreciate you knew the guy, but I don't think it's pushing boundaries that far to say that Richey's 'gesture' (for want of) was a little more than just an average punk-rock Joe's response: I mean, Steve Lamacq was hardly the most confrontational of interviewers, was he?

Is it really 'Hollywood' to suggest some kind of correlation between the self-cutting and Richey's depression/weight loss/ultimate disappearance? I personally cannot think of any UK rock star in a similar position who'd have made that 'point' in such a way (apart from perhaps Sid Vicious - though he'd likely have done it without rhyme nor reason).

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Spearmint Rhino
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quote:
I appreciate you knew the guy, but I don't think it's pushing boundaries that far to say that Richey's 'gesture' (for want of) was a little more than just an average punk-rock Joe's response: I mean, Steve Lamacq was hardly the most confrontational of interviewers, was he?
It wasn't about Lamacq being confrontational as such. It was about Lamacq refusing, over and over again, to accept that they meant what they said, and that they weren't some sort of manufactured scam. I can understand Richey's frustration, although I wouldn't have expressed it in that way.

quote:
Is it really 'Hollywood' to suggest some kind of correlation between the self-cutting and Richey's depression/weight loss/ultimate disappearance? I personally cannot think of any UK rock star in a similar position who'd have made that 'point' in such a way (apart from perhaps Sid Vicious - though he'd likely have done it without rhyme nor reason).
You can look at it two ways. On the one hand, you can say that it shows he didn't have the boundaries or limits that most of us have when it comes to bodily damage. On the other hand, you can say that it was a useful safety valve.

I don't want to exaggerate how well I knew him, but I did interview him on several occasions, sometimes on this very subject, and he specifically gave the impression that it was the latter.

Iggy Pop used to cut the fuck out of himself and he's still with us.

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Super Sharp Shooter
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I think SR is basically correct about self-harmers in general here. It's very disturbing to people who are unfamiliar with it, and it's intuitive to regard it as an early sign of something more dramatic, but I don't think the reality bears that out. It certainly doesn't correlate strongly with suicidal behaviour, as far as I understand it.

[ 25.03.2008, 14:40: Message edited by: Super Sharp Shooter ]

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die grosse linke Hand
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TVMP - you are looking at a sample set of two, which isn't really good for any reasonable analysis.

I think SR words his answer very well and far more suitably than I can explain the whole self harm thing. It is a very strange place and time thing for someone to be in, and sometimes very strange things can happen as a result in personal expression when frustrated (I always have felt frustration is very closely tied to the issue, amongst many other things).

While a vast majority of people keep self harm secret, I can easily understand how a break-out like this could happen. But then again, I am using a small sample set to explain the issue also.

SSS explains it quite well also.

[ 25.03.2008, 14:51: Message edited by: die grosse linke Hand ]

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TV's 'Mr P'
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quote:
It's very disturbing to people who are unfamiliar with it, and it's intuitive to regard it as an early sign of something more dramatic, but I don't think the reality bears that out. It certainly doesn't correlate strongly with suicidal behaviour, as far as I understand it.
As I said earlier, I didn't actually regard what Richey did as an early 'sign' of anything when it occurred - because, like many others, I had no real knowledge of his problems until much later (ie, a couple of years). However, whatever my (or anyone else's) experience of self-harming might be, I could be completely wrong, but I find it hard not to find *any* connection between this and the guy's later issues.

Basically, someone (Pants) asked me what I made of the event and I answered him.

quote:
TVMP - you are looking at a sample set of two, which isn't really good for any reasonable analysis.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, Hand - what is a 'sample set of two'? Slashgate and Richey's later problems?

quote:
Iggy Pop used to cut the fuck out of himself and he's still with us.
I did think about adding Iggy to the Sid example (except that he isn't British), but I'm pretty certain everyone familiar with his shtick would realise that his self-cutting was as big a part of his act as, say, setting his hair on fire was of Arthur Brown's. I'm just really not sure Richey falls into that category, is all.

[ 25.03.2008, 15:35: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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die grosse linke Hand
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I kind of mistook the angle of approach, TVMP, but don't feel looking for comparisons of bahviour is going to get anywhere. I don't think Vicious would have done something like that, and it is difficult to understand why Richey did - I doubt he would even know.

I think it was simply a point of other problems he suffered from providing him with a method of expression in a difficult interlude.

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