This board has been transferred to www.wsc.co.uk,

    why not join us there

One Touch Football - Archive   
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» One Touch Football - Archive » Music » It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) (Page 5)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 13 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  ...  11  12  13   
Author Topic: It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
Not me
Member
Member # 65

 - posted      Profile for Not me     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I find the premise that he didn't associate Mercury/Gay/Aids/Death, frankly, preposterous
Why? And what do you mean by "associate"?

I mean, I can appreciate how some of the comments here (from SR, SSS and myself) might look - to someone who wasn't there, didn't read the reports or the follow-up interviews, and probably doesn't have a feel for the context in which Wire made that comment - like wriggling to defend a hero or whatever, but that's certainly not where I'm coming from.

Posts: 4303 | From: The Ministry of the New New Super Heavy Funk | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Batebe of Toro Foundation
Member
Member # 465

 - posted      Profile for The Batebe of Toro Foundation     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's a completely prickish comment to make, but I don't think it makes him a complete prick.

The second comment I think is far more defensible, actually. It's fairly obviously a deliberate, and private, playing up to what you have just realised are people's perceptions of you.

Posts: 17027 | From: your gaff, nicking stuff. | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TV's 'Mr P'
Member
Member # 164

 - posted      Profile for TV's 'Mr P'     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That was largely my point, yes.

I'm calling him a complete prick for making the initial comment.

Posts: 10682 | From: the vaults of the biggest record collection in the world... | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Spearmint Rhino
Member
Member # 189

 - posted      Profile for Spearmint Rhino     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
(Wire's later quip as quoted by SR appears to emphasise it as being what he meant, whether he regretted it or otherwise. That said, I have far less of a problem with the later remark, since it appears to have been a clumsy attempt at broader black humour, given that it at least had some kind of context to it.)
It's probably worth clarifying that Wire said what he said to me after the whole "Oh no, you said a homophobic thing!" storm had kicked off and the NME witch-hunt wheels were already in motion. It was, as I said, sicko gallows humour, said in a resigned spirit of "Everyone hates me now, what the hell". Meant for my ears only, so I probably shouldn't have repeated it here (even 15 years later) and I - hah! - regret doing so, but I really wonder whether anyone here doesn't say sicko, don't-really-mean-it things among friends, in jest. I know I do, all the bloody time. If you think it confirms the supposed 'homophobia' of Wire's earlier, more public remark, you've grasped the wrong end of the stick I'm afraid.
Posts: 23907 | From: the Naughty North to the Sexy South, we're all singing 'I HAVE THE MOUTH!' | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TV's 'Mr P'
Member
Member # 164

 - posted      Profile for TV's 'Mr P'     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If you think it confirms the supposed 'homophobia' of Wire's earlier, more public remark, you've grasped the wrong end of the stick I'm afraid.
Well, it certainly doesn't 'disspell' it, but seeing as I don't particularly have an issue with the later remark, I'm prepared to take your word for that since you were there.
Posts: 10682 | From: the vaults of the biggest record collection in the world... | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
adams house cat
Member
Member # 228

 - posted      Profile for adams house cat     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Associate. If you are going to use the words 'Mercury' and 'Death' in the same phrase or sentence then you have to know that people are going to place 'Gay' and 'AIDS' in there no matter what you meant or later say you meant. Wire is an intelligent man and unless he was fucked-up beyond all comprehension he had to know what he was saying and how it was going to be taken. Had to.

I could be persuaded that there was no malice in his remarks but first I would have to believe that he was either being controversial for the sake of his/the Manic's reputation or that he genuinely didn't see that wishing Stipe dead (bad enough anyway) by associating him with Freddie Mercury, who died of an AIDS relayed illness, would be interpreted as cruel and homophobic.

Posts: 965 | From: Farmington NM | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noby
Member
Member # 1429

 - posted      Profile for noby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Surely he was just 'being controversial for the sake of his/the Manic's reputation'. I mean, wishing Stipe dead because he thought REMs music was mediocre? Or was there more to it?
Posts: 434 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bored Of The Dance
Member
Member # 6347

 - posted      Profile for Bored Of The Dance     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What have Idone wrong and The Horse done right, TVMP?

It is a question of interpretation. Leaving aside wishing death on someone (and that is a fair amount of slack to give someone), it is a question of whether

(a) Wire didn't know that Stipe was gay, which due to his later "faggots" remark and the knowledge people had at the time, I doubt but would probably fairly exonorate him.

(b) SRs interpretation that he randomly linked Stipe with Mercury whose death from Aids had, at the time, been seen as being caused by a promiscuously gay sex life.

(c) consciously or subconsciously Wire linked Stipe and Mercury because they were both gay and, again at the time, AIDS was still seen as predominately affecting the gay community. That fact that it doesn't doesn't really matter here.

Another couple of considerations that should be taken are that, for an intelligent man, Wire is known for some silly off-the-cuff remarks onstage ranging from the pretty banal (Wish they would build a motorway through here" at Glastonbury") to the petty ("This is better than bloke spinning records" at the Millenium") to the suspect (Stipe/Mercury)

The only real way to know his thought processes is to ask him but I would imagine that he would be horrified to defend the stage remark from 15 years ago and, even more so, a private remark that, out of context, makes him look like a bit of a cunt. He may be amazed by the way it is being dissected now.

As it happens, I think, underneath it all, he was perhaps trying to make a point about the way cancer is percieved compared to AIDS but it came out in a stupid way.

I also think that had the proverbial cab driver had said either of the remarks, we would have got well-pissed off.

Posts: 3647 | From: the desk of the Chairman | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bored Of The Dance
Member
Member # 6347

 - posted      Profile for Bored Of The Dance     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I think it's a completely prickish comment to make, but I don't think it makes him a complete prick.

Absolutely. More to the point, it makes him someone that says prickish things onstage which is a cul-de-sac I don't want to explore further

[ 20.03.2008, 16:45: Message edited by: Bored Of The Dance ]

Posts: 3647 | From: the desk of the Chairman | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bored Of The Dance
Member
Member # 6347

 - posted      Profile for Bored Of The Dance     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It's probably worth clarifying that Wire said what he said to me after the whole "Oh no, you said a homophobic thing!" storm had kicked off and the NME witch-hunt wheels were already in motion.
Why does the NME keep being mentioned? This has come from people on this board not from the NME. I personally don't remember him being questioned about it at all much at the time from any paper and I am certainly not taking my cues from any "witch hunt" at the time nor I feel is anyone else

Sometimes people just, you know, make up their own minds

Posts: 3647 | From: the desk of the Chairman | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Harry Carpenter
Member
Member # 1577

 - posted      Profile for Harry Carpenter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
unless he was fucked-up beyond all comprehension
I think that's always an option.

I thought this thread was about R Kelly for the last two days.

Posts: 6604 | From: the South Wales riviera to leafy suburbia | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has all gone a bit woolly.

I never took the Stipe/Mercury comment as indicating that Wire is homophobic. It was completely reasonable to assume he meant "die of Aids", so if he didn't mean that it's his funeral, but it's also true that people assuming this is an anti-gay sentiment are the ones with the homophobia problem, not Wire. Yet the idea that he was playing on other people's prejudices deliberately is a massive stretch (it was a bizarrely oblique way of doing it, if so) and I don't actually have any sympathy with him for being misinterpreted, as he could have predicted it and can't defend himself on the grounds that he was making some other important point, because he wasn't: he was just being witlessly controversial.

The faggots/cripples line is also witless and unpleasant (don't we all say things like that in private? Um, no), but I can't see that it should change our perception of the original comment too much, for the reasons SR gives.

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Spearmint Rhino
Member
Member # 189

 - posted      Profile for Spearmint Rhino     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Why does the NME keep being mentioned? This has come from people on this board not from the NME. I personally don't remember him being questioned about it at all much at the time from any paper and I am certainly not taking my cues from any "witch hunt" at the time nor I feel is anyone else

Sometimes people just, you know, make up their own minds

Because the NME kicked up an almighty fuss about it and cemented the idea in people's heads that what Wire said was somehow 'homophobic', an idea which has persisted ever since among people who remember the incident.

Of course you can make up your own minds, but I think it's perfectly relevant to talk about the "first draft of history" here.

Posts: 23907 | From: the Naughty North to the Sexy South, we're all singing 'I HAVE THE MOUTH!' | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TV's 'Mr P'
Member
Member # 164

 - posted      Profile for TV's 'Mr P'     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bored: you've not done anything wrong - I guess Horse's comment spelled out more succinctly what I think the issue is here.

I'll reiterate my earlier comment that any way one attempts to belatedly 'dress up' a remark like Wire's isn't really going to cut much ice with people, I'm afraid. If you're as educated as NW has often reminded the press that he thinks he is, well, you either discipline your onstage 'banter', or face the consequences for it, I'm afraid.

(And I know there's a shocking mixed metaphor in there, but it's getting dark.)

[ 20.03.2008, 17:04: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

Posts: 10682 | From: the vaults of the biggest record collection in the world... | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Harry Carpenter
Member
Member # 1577

 - posted      Profile for Harry Carpenter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If one then tries to fudge the issue by ...attempting to suggest Wire simply intended to wish 'death' on Stipe - that's just plain daft.
I don't think it is, my own interpratation was that Wire (as was his wont) blurted out something scattergun to fill a gap between songs without realising what the (admittedly, pretty obvious) connotation would be. I can picture the scene of him slapping his forehead when this connotation was put to him.

I did the same when I heard 'Enola Gay' come on a bus radio and nobody answered my impromptu quiz as to what the song was named after. It was only afterwards when someone pointed out that it was an insensitive thing to ask on a bus going to Tokyo that I realised what I'd done.

Posts: 6604 | From: the South Wales riviera to leafy suburbia | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 13 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  ...  11  12  13   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WSC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2

    This board has been transferred to www.wsc.co.uk,

    why not join us there