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» One Touch Football - Archive » Music » It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) (Page 7)

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Author Topic: It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
TV's 'Mr P'
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Bored: great, so I was right all along then!

Right. So if it wasn't for the sake of 'outrage' (which, of course, would be ironic), then what..??

[ 20.03.2008, 17:34: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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Not me
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I'd be interested to know what effects people think Wire's comments would have had at the time.

Do you think they'd have legitimised homophobia in music press readers? (This story never got anywhere near "the masses.") That the Manics' Beavis and Butthead rock fan faction would have taken it as a reassuring sign of the underlying hetero-blokishness of these men smeared in make-up?

And how much responsibility would the band have for that? In contrast to Sebastian Bach, I'm pretty sure that their guitarist would have been wearing a shirt with "ALL ROCK 'N' ROLL IS HOMOSEXUAL" written across the front that night.

ahc - I think it's safe to assume there's malice in wishing someone an agonising death. But I don't think you're right to draw parallels between Elvis Costello calling Ray Charles a "nigger" and Nicky Wire not calling Michael Stipe a "faggot".

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Spearmint Rhino
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Cart before horse, TVMP. With Wire, it isn't "Saying outrageous things will make me a successful rock star." It's "I'm a successful rock star so I have a platform to say outrageous things".

Re. premeditation: at any one time, Wire has a mental Little Black Book of people he wants to slag off publicly, and in '92 Michael Stipe was clearly high on that list. Whether he actually comes out and says it, at a particular gig, has a pretty direct correlation to how much wine he's been drinking...

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Harry Carpenter
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It's a lot harder stretch to imagine Bach put on a t-shirt with the sentiment it had on it without reading it than it is to imagine Wire making the reported comment without realising the connotation.

As for his "faggots" comment afterwards, it's black humour with a friend (ironically between two people who have probably had "faggot" screamed at them quite a few times in their life) knowingly using a proscribed term. Regrettable perhaps but I'm sure you might have done the same with friends, Bored?

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
Harry's probably right there. Existing Manics fans (the hardcore variety, at least) fucking love it when Wire slags everyone off, but doesn't win over the floating voters.
Speaking for a large number of people there, SR. I just think Wire is running off at the mouth usually and that he would make a crap stand-up. Maybe I am not hardcore enough. I have checked and I do exist though
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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quote:
Cart before horse, TVMP. With Wire, it isn't "Saying outrageous things will make me a successful rock star." It's "I'm a successful rock star so I have a platform to say outrageous things".


Hmm. I realise you're the official source for Manics History, SR, but this doesn't really tally with what I recall of their early career.

Didn't they enter stage left with an outrageous remark ("I laughed when Lennon was shot..."), and immediately set about sloganising, publishing manifestos, and declaring that they were going to release a triple album which outsold Guns'N'Roses then split up, all before anybody bar immediate family had bought a record by them?

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Spearmint Rhino
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I have to disagree: having seen his solo shows a couple of years ago, he'd make an absolutely brilliant stand-up. (Hey Harry, were you at Hay On Wye?)
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TV's 'Mr P'
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quote:
Cart before horse, TVMP. With Wire, it isn't "Saying outrageous things will make me a successful rock star." It's "I'm a successful rock star so I have a platform to say outrageous things".
Hmm, I'd argue it's both in his case. I mean, weren't they doing a lot of this 'we're public enemy number one!' stuff before they got big? I seem to remember reading masses about the band's antics before I heard even a smidge of their music.

(Blimey, kismet post even down to the opening 'hmm' there, Toro!)

[ 20.03.2008, 17:45: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
(Hey Harry, were you at Hay On Wye?)
Yes, quite a night and one he has not even tried to repeat in style since.

I'm not at all sure about him doing stand-up but there's a good 'An Audience with...' there somewhere.

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
It's a lot harder stretch to imagine Bach put on a t-shirt with the sentiment it had on it without reading it than it is to imagine Wire making the reported comment without realising the connotation.
It may be a lot harder stretch for you but, for me, I am genuinely not sure about either of them and am not judging one as any better than the other. I think they are both stupid things to do.

Wire does seem to be getting and, I think got did get more slack at the time that it was a one-off abberation from a pretty sound guy than Bach which may be a correct assumption.

quote:
As for his "faggots" comment afterwards, it's black humour with a friend (ironically between two people who have probably had "faggot" screamed at them quite a few times in their life) knowingly using a proscribed term. Regrettable perhaps but I'm sure you might have done the same with friends, Bored?
I am genuinely not sure that I would. It's hard to say as I don't think I would have been in the situation on stage to then be speaking about it afterwards.

I genuinely don't know whether I would use the words "faggot" or "cripple" amongst friends. I don't like the way that "gay" seems to have crept back into general usage either.

My point with the "faggot" remark is that it shows that Wire did get the connection even if it was afterwards. I also say that, out of contest, it looks cunty. As SR says, you had to be there but it certainly doesn't clear up the issue if that was SRs intention.

On balance, I am slightly more concerned about SR, 15 years later, defending a highly suspect remark made by someone who probably regrets it himself and SR saying that he regrets his regret as if he has somehow diluted his actions by not saying stupid off-the cuff remarks

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adams house cat
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Hate to disagree, not me, but I think there is a parallel. Wire didn't have to use the word 'faggot'. I can almost see the sneering insouciance that accompanied his remarks so that everyone got the message. Costello used a truly offensive word, in private (in a hotel bar I believe). Both where in a position where any remarks would be parsed by people looking to find/make controversy. Both courted controversy. Neither could complain if their remarks were taken out of context. Costello had to answer for his remarks. Wire didn't.
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Bored Of The Dance
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TVMP, yes you sort of were but I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was taking the piss at someone in another direction which has tripped me up.

I get the impression it was out of general, I don't know , mischief?

Anyway, here is the quote, decide for yourself

quote:
[Publicly wishing AIDS on Michael Stipe] didn't come out the way I wanted it to. I just wanted to demystify the whole rock 'n' roll...experience. David Bowie was going down on one knee saying the Lord's Prayer [at the Freddie Mercury Tribute/AIDS Charity Concert]...I dunno, everyone had had these decadent lives but now you must behave yourselves...and with Philip [Hall, MSP manager] having cancer, it was just all a big fuck-up. A disastrous moment in history. It's Philip's fault, he told me to do it: 'Go on, Wire: say it!' The mad bastard...



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Bored Of The Dance
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By the way, Harry, I am not elevating myself above Wire. I started by saying

quote:
I can't think of anyone that I would say it is ludicrous to think of them being homophobic "in any way". There isn't a sharp line. We have all grown up in society that is still largely homophobic and, as with racism, we probably all still suffer from the homophobic views of that society to a lesser or greater degree.

Like Wire, I have probably said some stupid and regrettable statements that were subconsciously (or, even consciously) homophobic in private or public that I have regretted almost immediately.


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The Horse
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quote:
I think it's a comment that had the deliberate semblance of something bigoted, with the aim of making people do a double-take. It might not have been as funny or as pointed, but had the same hoiked-up disgust at phony, vacuous moralising that you get in Chris Morris's brainwrongs. There's no inherent value in being ver-ry provocative, but, you know, if Wire's comment led anyone to question the unexamined emoting about celebrity deaths while millions of normal people suffer worse every day etc etc, or the privileging of AIDS above other awful diseases and conditions, then it's alright by me, basically. Intentions and private comments don't come into it - that's how I read it at the time.
Well, if that's how you read it, that's how you read it, but Chris Morris's superficially inflammatory lines tend to have a point to them, within the lines themselves. Wire's Stipe/Mercury non-quip doesn't. If a small proportion of those listening took what he said and ran with it in a positive direction, good for them, but I think that's a fluke on his part for which he doesn't deserve any credit.
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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Yeah, it's like saying "well if that burning cross horrified people and made them reconsider their racism, it's alright by me."
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