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» One Touch Football - Archive » Music » It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) (Page 8)

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Author Topic: It's The End Of The Closet As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)
Not me
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quote:
I can almost see the sneering insouciance that accompanied his remarks so that everyone got the message
Projection, your honour!

I stand to be corrected, but I'm sure Elvis Costello made those remarks in an interview. They're pretty unambiguous, whereas Wire's emission was anything but (at least, not as it related to sexuality; the "death wish" part was pretty clear). It just doesn't seem that apt a comparison to me.

I wasn't referring to Wire's private comments to SR later on, up there, by the way.

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TV's 'Mr P'
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Indeed, well put, H.

I don't see even a shred of comparison between what was at best a crass, stupid public outburst and Chris Morris's carefully-crafted parodies.

[ 20.03.2008, 18:33: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
I'd be interested to know what effects people think Wire's comments would have had at the time.

Do you think they'd have legitimised homophobia in music press readers? (This story never got anywhere near "the masses.")

Oh, it probably had none at all.
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Bored Of The Dance
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In OFT parlance, What the Horse and TVMP said.
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Not me
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The comparison was with the disgust at phony, mediated moralising, not with the quality or presentation.

quote:
Yeah, it's like saying "well if that burning cross horrified people and made them reconsider their racism, it's alright by me."
That might work be if I'd said Wire's comments made people reconsider their homophobia, but I didn't.

Give me a better one - I'm open to persuasion on this, but I've not been swayed by anything so far.

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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
Wire didn't have to use the word 'faggot'. I can almost see the sneering insouciance that accompanied his remarks so that everyone got the message.
Your argument here is your own, completely imaginary picture of how someone didn't say a word.

Wow, well I don't think anything can match the power of that argument, case closed surely?

[ 20.03.2008, 18:53: Message edited by: Harry Carpenter ]

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The Horse
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quote:
The comparison was with the disgust at phony, mediated moralising, not with the quality or presentation.
Well yes, but this is hard to discern in what he actually said, which was merely that he hoped someone would die. Morris' agenda isn't hard to discern; it's there in the text.
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adams house cat
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Quite right, not me. 'Assuming facts not in evidence'. But I somehow doubt that there was any gravitas to his statement.

I think the Costello incident happened in a hotel bar. Bonnie Raitt belted him and shoved him off of a bar stool.

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TV's 'Mr P'
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I agree, H - it's you who's projecting this upon the remark, NM, I don't think it's anywhere apparent in any supposed subtext.

(And I wasn't especially focusing on any quality or presentation.)

quote:
Your argument here is your own, completely imaginary picture of how someone didn't say a word.
Quite correct. Just as the 'imaginary' suggestions of Wire's 'subtext' are, presumably.

[ 20.03.2008, 19:14: Message edited by: TV's 'Mr P' ]

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Harry Carpenter
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quote:
[Publicly wishing AIDS on Michael Stipe] didn't come out the way I wanted it to.
We have to presume that the words in brackets are not Wire's own so pretty disingenous in this discussion, don't we?

The rest of the quote this comes from just makes little sense at all, to be honest.

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Purves Grundy
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quote:
I'd be interested to know what effects people think Wire's comments would have had at the time.
My recollection is that the only effect it had at the time was to get Boy George's phone ringing for the first time in years as the NME news desk phoned him up for a response to something he'd no idea about until he heard the NME's (probably) tendentious account of it. Oh, and allowing us to get pearls of wisdom from the likes of Lesley out of Silverfish and bloke number 3 out of Senseless Things (was this before or after Homophobic Asshole?)

At the time I wasn't much of a fan of the Manics, and I had no idea about or interest in what Michael Stipe chooses to do with his willy. Nowadays only the last of those is true. Consequently for me as a passing, random MM-reader I saw no subtext to it, just somebody expressing the sort of fury and loathing I felt about, say, Axl Rose. And I thought it was brilliant.

Whether Wire knew about Stipe's orientation I have no idea, but I don't necessarily think it's a given that he was plotting a Freddie-Aids-Stipe axis here. It was just the obvious, recent instance of a rockstar dying young is my hunch. And for all the suggestions that he should have thought more carefully before getting drunk on stage and saying something inflammatory and crass, well I personally prefer the thought that my rock stars don't run all their remarks past a focus group before unleashing them on the public. Sometimes they'll be gloriously brilliant, othertimes they'll be gloriously awful. Either way, it's glorious. I even love Johnny Borell's ludicrous soliloquy about the route of the bus up Holloway Road for that sort of reason.

And as for the 'cripples' gag afterwards, that is a brilliant joke. There's nothing of the "Cripples, Mal" brutality of Beatles aftershow stories or Lennon doing his spastic dance on stage. Instead it's gallows humour; it's the brilliant shock of the use of stunningly and recognisably out-of-character language for effect. It's exactly the same sort of bravado as Richie cutting 4-Real into his arm, except that where one was public yet directed inward, the other was conspiratorial and externally-focused. It was an outsider's response - "that's what you think I am? Fine! Have it!" and was cut from the same cloth as the brilliantly pugnacious You Love Us and is precisely what made the Manics such a treasure.

[ 20.03.2008, 22:31: Message edited by: Purves Grundy ]

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Taylor
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quote:
Johnny Borell's ludicrous soliloquy about the route of the bus up Holloway Road
What the hell was this?
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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
The rest of the quote this comes from just makes little sense at all, to be honest.
I know. That is why I didn't really pass comment on it. To be fair, I garnered from that quote that Wire is as befuddled as to what was going on in his head that night as we are (apart from SR).

[ 21.03.2008, 00:15: Message edited by: Bored Of The Dance ]

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
bloke number 3 out of Senseless Things (was this before or after Homophobic Asshole?)

Fucking hell, they were jealous of the Manics at the time and that single would have been a better bet if they had spelt "Arsehole" correctly.

quote:
for all the suggestions that he should have thought more carefully before getting drunk on stage and saying something inflammatory and crass, well I personally prefer the thought that my rock stars don't run all their remarks past a focus group before unleashing them on the public.
I thought he was/is teetotal. If he was drunk that night, it does put a bit of a different perspective on both the remarks. Neither are Ok but saying something when you are very pissed that you regret later is slightly different.

quote:
It's exactly the same sort of bravado as Richie cutting 4-Real into his arm, except that where one was public yet directed inward, the other was conspiratorial and externally-focused.
Pur-lease, Nicky Wire calling someone a "cripple" is nothing like Richie cutting into his arm and refusing to jump the queue at the hospital because he felt there were people more deserving than him.

It is an odd one to keep going on about this "cripple" thing because SR has already said that it was a private thing that he regrets posting.

As it happens, I don't really have a problem with Nicky Wire saying what he did onstage as he seems to regret it since. You know, fuck it, we all say stupid things that we regret.I also don't have too much of a problem with what he did say to SR as, at the time, it was an off-the-cuff thing that he probably never thought would be posted on a forum where it looks, to be honest, a bit cunty out of context.

What I have a problem with is SR saying that he wishes that Nicky Wire still said stupid stuff like this and people saying the "cripples" thing is a brilliant joke.

If someone came on here and said the Stipe thing or the "cripples" thing, they would quite rightly get ripped apart so I don't see why people think that defending such statements on here is OK.

Neither would pass "SSS's cab driver" moral test

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Super Sharp Shooter
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Ah well, I don't know about that. I like to hope I can detect the difference between an off colour joke and real bigotry. Indeed, if you're talking about my cab driver, that's an example where the distinction between soft racism and hard racism, and the usefulness of spotting the difference is pertinent.

A few people on here suggested that they'd have probably argued the details. I don't think that's how you deal with hard racists. You marginalise them as much as possible and cut off the oxygen supply as it were. They're not open to argument, so the best thing to do is adopt a hard-line. Not quite "no platform", more "no platform with me", but the principle is similar: You want to tel outright lies about "pakis" to demonstrate a point you know to be false? Well fuck you. I don't need to be reasonable with you; you just surrendered that right.

Soft racists are different; their bigotry genuinely stems from ignorance. So it's worth talking to those people and giving them different perspectives to think about.

You know; always have a chat with a BNP voter, but if you meet Nick Griffin and no-one's looking, give him a dig in the nuts.

In any case, that's all a tangent, and doesn't apply so well to Wire.

[ 21.03.2008, 00:54: Message edited by: Super Sharp Shooter ]

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