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» One Touch Football - Archive » World » Two questions for OTF's loony lefty dinosaurs not living in the real world (Page 9)

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Author Topic: Two questions for OTF's loony lefty dinosaurs not living in the real world
KimCasey
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Well, there is though, as long as enough MPs will back you. Clause VII of the Rulebook...

Clause 7 - Party Officers and Statutory Officers

1 Party officers

1A Leader and deputy leader

(a) There shall be a leader and deputy leader of the party who shall, ex-officio, be leader and deputy leader of the PLP.

(b) The leader and deputy leader of the party shall be elected or re-elected from among Commons members of the PLP in accordance with procedural rule 4B.2, at a party conference convened in accordance with clause VI of these rules. In respect to the election of the leader and deputy leader, the standing orders of the PLP shall always automatically be brought into line with these rules.


(Edit: To GO, obviously. And I think it's time for Blair to go now, by the way. Just stating that it wasn't really the agressive takeover some like to suggest).

[ 23.08.2006, 15:14: Message edited by: KimCasey ]

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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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quote:
So probably best not bother.
See, I can't abide this attitude.

It's always best to bother. Even when failure is assured.

The alternative is to live with the fact that you saw whatever shit is now happening in the offing, and failed even to try and stop it.

[ 23.08.2006, 16:41: Message edited by: Bartali Toro ]

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Wolf 2
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bingo. I'm up for giving it a shot.
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Chippy
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Surely not.

As someone who was a LP member for over half my life (joined at 15, left at 37, currently 39)and took a long time to take the decision I think I can safely say that re-joining or joining the Labour Party at this point would only re-inforce Blair's position.

A blind man with an emptied case of Thunderbird will see that Gordon Brown will win this election. If he does and behaves differently then it will be a time for me to consider re-joining. Until then I don't think endorsing the most recent epic of Blair the Crusader will do any good whatsoever.

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Chippy
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I voted for Kinnock in 1983 over Shore, Hattersley and Heffer

I voted for Kinnock over Benn in 1988 (causing major fall out with all my friends)

I voted for Smith over Bryan Gould in 1992 (who wouldn't?)

But I voted for Beckett (17%) over Blair (58%) and Prescott (24%) in 1994.

The 42% not voting for Blair in 1994 kind of points out the weakness of this strategy.

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E10Rifle
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Thing is, things have changed, a lot, since both 1994 (the Labour right's high water mark) and 1983 (the Labour left's), so I'm not sure making direct analogies with both settles the argument one way or the other.

Political parties in general, and Labour in particular, are in a state of flux, weakness and even turmoil at the moment. There's a between-dynasties feel, and in those moments, a lot can happen. Blair remains glued to power, but his circle have completely lost the political credibility they appeared to have between 94 and around 2000. There's a vacuum to be filled.

In the short term, that will almost certainly be filled by Brown, but if, as is likely, he carries on down Blair's path he's gonna spark internal conflict and may have to change tack, and he'll have none of the past successes in the bank that Blair's always, tediously and with characteristic absence of political imagination, brought up whenever challenged. The gap between party and leadership (including Brown) has been repeatedly exposed of late.

I dare say I'll fuck of back out of it in a couple of year's time, but this seems like an interesting moment.

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You Are The Ref
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quote:
This is rather mental, and irrational, since most of the policies cited as unpopular in the poll are also backed by Cameron's mob.
See, I don't know about this. If you assume that there's no alternative to the government's present policies- privatisation, loss of civil liberties, foreign policy decided in Washington, etc etc- if you don't see any alternative to this, because that's what the major parties all agree on and the newspapers and TV act as an echo chamber to the consensus, then it makes more sense to choose a plausible, well spoken Tory voice of moderate sensibleism instead of Blair's Lear on the heath.

[ 23.08.2006, 18:26: Message edited by: You Are The Ref ]

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Exploding Vole, The
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I'm really enjoying this thread.

Kudos to all concerned.

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E10Rifle
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Good post YATR, can't really argue with it, but its essential points - about how Cameron "appears plausible" and the like - sum up what is wrong with political dialogue today. That it's all about "appearance" and beyond that, I would add, "making your point", rather than "making a difference". The protest vote enshrined as political strategy.

Take the way people, at any point in any given day, are given an opportunity to "have their say" about an issue of the day - on internet polls, on phone-ins, on old-school Mori-style polls - all the time. Which is cool, in itself. But "having your say" is in no way the same as "having an effect". Everyone can have their say in the current climate, but they just can't do anything about it. So voting, and political participation, or just having a discussion, becomes merely about "letting off steam" and "airing your views", rather than about actually thinking strategically about how you can act to improve your environment (locally, nationally or internationally) for the better.

Don't get me wrong: I think that the ways in which people have been given more of a chance for self-expression through technological and other gains are, basically, good things - but they're being stymied at the same time by the basic absence of proper, effective democratic mechanisms that thwart us at every turn.

Sorry, off at a bit of a tangent there, but I wanted to - ha! - let off a bit of steam meself there.

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E10Rifle
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Had my (red) membership card and general info pack in the post today congratulating me on helping make Britain a better, fairer place by joining. Some useful info, but the whole thing's written with the assumption that I'm a simpleton. No mention of foreign policy at all (apart from micro-things like "banning anti-personnel mines"; shame about all the other weapons we're selling). My CLP will be in touch with me soon, apparently (though given that I'm likely to be moving out soon I doubt I'll have much chance to get involved in this area).
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Gangster Octopus
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Moving anywhere nice?
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TonTon
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quote:
It's always best to bother. Even when failure is assured.

The alternative is to live with the fact that you saw whatever shit is now happening in the offing, and failed even to try and stop it.

See, I have my problems with that attitude as well. Or rather, with the behaviours it leads to. While I'd agree that it's always worth doing something, I can't agree that it's always worth doing anything.
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E10Rifle
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Yeah I agree with TonTon on that particular attitude, though we've made different decisions on how to go about things. (There was a very gracious letter by John Rees of Respect about the Labour left in the paper the other day BTW).

GO, don't know yet - but north and east in some form.

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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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TonTon - yeah, that's fair enough. It was the other extreme I was objecting too, but that's not much better.
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Gangster Octopus
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Tom, it looks like you've joined at the right time...
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