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» One Touch Football - Archive » World » Believe in [a] God / Don't believe in [a] God. (Page 16)

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Author Topic: Believe in [a] God / Don't believe in [a] God.
Wyatt Earp
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Though more polite about it.
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Oadlad
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I'm so tired of you lot arguing about me I wish I hadn't bothered...
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Purves Grundy
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quote:
PG: so God exists as an idea? Yeah, I think that's true.
A bit more than that. I mean, your giant golden Sepp Blatter statue exists as an idea. As I say, I'd accord this notion the same level of existence (or probably a notch or two down) as I would something like conscience (not consciousness, which I read SSS as having confused me for meaning).

Some people have this abstract notion which they call god and which they share with others and which governs their actions. I think they're wrong, but I don't think that's relevant to the question of this fallacy's existence or potency.

[ 26.10.2007, 13:04: Message edited by: Purves Grundy ]

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Super Sharp Shooter
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Well, "potency" is interesting, isn't it?

I have this abstract notion that I call "enthusiasm" which I share with others and which governs a lot of my actions.

I'm not trying to trivialise the notion of God - well, not as such - but that this mental construct exists doesn't make it an especially distinctive one. So I'd be wary of calling it "potent" myself; it's not inaccurate, but it rather suggests an unusually high potency. Which I doubt it really has, for most people.

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Purves Grundy
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Not sure "enthusiasm" works as a comparison. You have to be enthusiastic about something. Maybe a better comparison would be the abstract notion of "a partiality to apple crumble". I have a partialitry to apple crumble and it somethimes goiverns my actions inasmuch as now and then I'll have some apple crumble.

I'd accord god the same level of existence as "partiality to apple crumble".

edit - it occurs to me that ultimately all I'm saying is that god is a first-rank meme. Not particularly insightful, but at bit more satisfactory to me in its thoroughness than just saying "no" which would be my shorthand position.

[ 26.10.2007, 13:09: Message edited by: Purves Grundy ]

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Super Sharp Shooter
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Yeah, I think that's about right, at the individual level.

The larger societal effects of religions and churches are a different question, I think.

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Purves Grundy
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Dunno, because have you seen the way some people can go on about whether you should include cinnamon or mixed spice in the crumble mix? The fuckers are forever marching up and down Wimbledon High Street saying one or the other method is right and smashing up supermarket shop windows.
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Gangster Octopus
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And they'd both be wrong...
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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quote:
PG: so God exists as an idea? Yeah, I think that's true.
Eeeeh, I think that's a very reductive version of what he was saying.


quote:
In our new spirit of circling the wagons against aiatl, I don't want a row with toro, so I hope he'll take it as a friendly joke when I say that a succinct statement of his position was long overdue, even if it had to come from someone else.
heh. (grrr.)

quote:
But that succinct statement still strikes me as a bit glib. The atheist position is, surely, that the notion of God--any notion of God, not some particular one--plays no part in our conception of reality. It would take forever for the atheist passenger to list the Gods he doesn't believe in; it would be quicker for the religious one to describe the version he does sign up to, and for the atheist to say either "No, don't buy that either" or (less likely) "Ah, well, now you put it that way..."
But the theist's God is, by definition, indefinable. And I'm not really sure, as I said above, that there's anything in it that the atheist must disagree with.

quote:
Incidentally, I recall toro once saying that his theism stemmed partly from the fact that he experienced the Universe as benevolent. The odd thing for me there is that while I stopped experiencing the Universe as benevolent in 1996 (and believe me, NUFC blowing a twelve-point lead was some way down the list of reasons), I was just as atheist when I used to.

Never said that, sorry. I can only conceive of it as basically benevolent, experience very much to the contrary.
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Mitch
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quote:
But the theist's God is, by definition, indefinable
But surely, it must be definable in contrast to another religion's God(s) though?
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lyra
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Can the universe be anything -volent? bene or male? Does that not imply some kind of consciousness? Maybe 'benign'? But then again, in relation to what?
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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Mitch - Not necessarily. Scriptural and liturgical differences are not necessarily differences in the conception of God. And even if "definition by contrast" is possible, it's only because we can list things which God is not. That's not enough for what Wyatt's requesting, it raises precisely the same problem of interminability.

Lyra - for the theist, that's not a problem. I don't know how Wyatt will cash out "benevolent", but some (atheist) physicists like James Jeans have spoken about the apparent mindedness or intentionality of the universe, too.

[ 26.10.2007, 15:24: Message edited by: Toroweap Fault ]

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