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» One Touch Football - Archive » World » Why do so many women like it rough? (Page 9)

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Author Topic: Why do so many women like it rough?
Wyatt Earp
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quote:
I've genuinely never read any "men think/do this, women think/do that" generalisations that tally with my experience...
Sure, but that's the fault of that kind of general claim rather than of any kind of general claim concerning sexuality.

Some thoughts:

1. It's possible to rescue some such claims by making them statistical rather than universal. So for example, the claim that men are keener than women on casual sex is demonstrably false if you mean "all men are keener on casual sex than all women", but there's actually pretty good evidence for it if it's interpreted as "a randomly chosen man is more likely than not to be keener on casual sex than a randomly chosen woman", or something along those lines.

2. Not all generalisations touching on sexuality concern differences between men and women anyway. For instance, the claim that step-parents (on the whole, statistically) feel less affection for their charges than biological parents (or, indeed, than adoptive parents) seems to work for both men and women.

3. Saying that generalisations are impossible amounts to saying that human sexuality is infinitely various. That's clearly false if you ignore outliers and focus on the majority, but it's also false (though less obviously so) if you don't. Michael Moorcock has a story in which people have become so jaded with sexual experimentation that the genitals have ceased to be especially erogenous and instead people are aroused by (for example) each other's elbows. That describes no human society that has actually existed. There are generalisations of this character all over the place; we just fail to spot them because their sheer banality means that we treat them as given.

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hobbes
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Heh heh. Not Me said "titular."
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lyra
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It does seem to be a bit silly to say 'all generalisations are useless'.
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The_Liquidator
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Spangles here. I don't know why I can't log in as me, it is very annoying.

Anyway, my take on the question is that there are a couple of explanations which are plausible.

One is that it is about an abdication of responsibility, or rather of blame. I think that's what's going on in a rape fantasy, which is not as uncommon as one might think. In a culture where female sexual desire is still stigmatised, the idea that the male partner has "overwhelmed" the woman with his superior strength and/or ritualised violence such as hair-pulling or spanking means that she doesn't have to feel guilty about what she's doing. Rather than owning her own actions she's submitting to an unstoppable force and thus is not a dirty slut but an innocent victim. Obviously this discourse is underpinned by the fact of consent - it's her fantasy, it's what she wants, the reality is that she *is* acting on her desire.

Related to this is a set of socially and culturally derived ideas about masculinity and femininity. Being weaker is more feminine; his strength and aggression are more manly; perhaps precisely those women who in daily life are most competent, independent and strong, and hence most transgressive of the conventional gender structure, may seek a safe and limited recreation of those roles they have otherwise abandoned. The kind of atavistic narratives we have about men being overwhelmed with desire and losing control over themselves play into this as well. The more aggressive and domineering he is sexually, the more truly feminine and desirable she must be.

But once again, if she has asked for it then she is explicitly still in charge. It is fantasy in the most concrete of senses, an imaginative exploration of submission or weakness firmly grounded in a reality of control.

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lyra
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But as you say such fantasies are by their nature contradictory - at least when it comes to enactment. in order to recreate the feeling of taking no responsibility, one has to take responsibility, and not only that but also exert some pressure on the other person. and so the attempt to remove shame can become shameful.

there must be a way into resolving this or people wouldn't do it, but I don't know what that way is.


"The more aggressive and domineering he is sexually, the more truly feminine and desirable she must be." is what I was trying to get at with the hair-pulling thing. But again, if you have to ask someone to pull your hair to make you feel that they desire you - can you ever believe again that they actually do? I wonder if all fantasy must by nature include an element of acceptance that what the fantasist needs/desires can never actually be theirs; but if that's so then it's rather depressing to think that 'being desirable' often comes into that category.

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The_Liquidator
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" I wonder if all fantasy must by nature include an element of acceptance that what the fantasist needs/desires can never actually be theirs."

or you could say that you already know it is present but want to have it acted out as well.

AS you say, the inherent contradiction is problematic but I think it's to do with layers of conciousness and the difference between thinking and doing.

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The_Liquidator
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I think Spangles should edit that so it looks like it's me being very intelligent and wordy.

Actually, I'll just leave the thread, or this will get very confusing.

[ 02.01.2008, 14:22: Message edited by: The_Liquidator ]

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Phoebe Disco
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You could always edit it yourself.
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Gas Filled Dolphin Carcass
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I like to fantasize about PPV getting slapped about when I'm having sex. Is that really so bad?
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The_Liquidator
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Good point Pheobe.
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lyra
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"AS you say, the inherent contradiction is problematic but I think it's to do with layers of conciousness and the difference between thinking and doing. "

Yeah sure, I get that. There's a level of emotional confidence you'd need before enacting something like that, maybe. Otherwise there is a trap you fall into of needing the physical reinforcement but being unable to believe there's an emotional reality behind it, because you've had to 'ask' for it. The confidence has to be on another level.

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Not me
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I've not said that generalisations about sex are impossible or useless, just that I've yet to encounter any convincing ones in discussions like this - which has to a large extent been about gender differences in sexual behaviour. I should have been clearer about that, but in my defence this is a thread begun by one such gender-specific generalisation, and about behaviour which Wyatt saw as "a phenomenon that, you know, stands in need of explanation" (which read to me like he meant specifically a female preference for such tomfoolery) and for which he raised a few pointers (back on page 5) for possible approaches without actually pulling one together.

Point 1. in Wyatt's post above is an interesting example. Most women I know have had more casual sex than most men I know - although it's possible that most men I know would be more into the idea of having more casual sex, while the women would be less so, but it just worked out that way for them. There's also the issue that some women might not like to be percieved to be "keen on casual sex" cause of the dumb history of misogynist reactions to female promiscuity, or a perception that it might put the kibosh on anything longer term developing, say.

Now, I'm aware that this is likely to be quite specific to the culture I've grown up in - the drunken, British one, basically - but for exactly that reason I'd question how instructive it actually is to say "a randomly chosen man is more likely than not to be keener on casual sex than a randomly chosen woman." Are we talking worldwide here? Even nationwide, we'd have to account for weirdo Christians and the like. So it's possible that the statement doesn't actually say what it might appear to in the context of this thread.

I'd also be interested to know how those statistics were gathered, and how you could mitigate against people's tendencies to say what they think they're supposed to say. These stats might be as good as they get, but how good can that actually be?

Oh, and there's certainly no precious, "No one can contain the passion of man (and woman) with science!" thinking behind my challenge. I'll level with you, I just wanted something good to read from the people who know about these things, cause I don't know the form and I'm interested. I suspect there are gender-related generalisations about sexual behaviour that hold, but that ultimately they're too broad to be particularly edifying.

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TonTon
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I must admit, in thinking about the serious underlying point, I have ignored any questions of gender difference. I tend to go with Not me's line there, more or less.
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Wyatt Earp
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quote:
I'd also be interested to know how those statistics were gathered, and how you could mitigate against people's tendencies to say what they think they're supposed to say. These stats might be as good as they get, but how good can that actually be?
This is an interesting place to start, I think.
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Malcolm X
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"The more aggressive and domineering he is sexually, the more truly feminine and desirable she must be."

Not so sure about that actually.

That sounds a bit like a Mills and Boon cliche and in most cases in my experience is not true.

Actually a majority of the women i know who like it rough are very aggressive in bed.
Although it may be that i only attract certain women and that may indeed be the case (i dont agree but then i could be wrong).

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