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Author Topic: Bloody foreigners!
evilC
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Curse their industriousness - why can't they all just be lazy and feckless, then they'd be easier to tar with one brush!
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Rogin the Armchair fan
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It's astonishing that 2.6 million Britons are on incapacity benefit. That's around 1 in 15 of the working-age population. Are we really such an unfit nation that almost 1 in 15 of us are too ill to work? I know many people (probably myself included) couldn't lug slates up onto roofs, or move molten iron around a smelting works, but you don't have to be Daley Thompson to sit behind a till in Somerfield's, or answer the phnoe in a Travel Agency.
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Antonio Gramsci
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No, but even sitting behind a till or answering a phone requires a basic "presence", and set of life skills that come with having been employed recently. My understanding is that much of the rise in disability benefit numbers are due to a reclassifixation of people who have been unemployed 10 years +. They're not physically disabled, but they find it to hold down a job due to lack of education, skills, temperament, etc.

I don't think the UK is alone in this - I think similar rises in disability claims were seen in Alberta and in US states that experimented with tougher welfare laws, too.

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Rogin the Armchair fan
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AG, that's the rub, though. We're saying that millions of adults of working age are physically or mentally incapable of doing even the 4-hour afternoon shift at Lidl, 4 days a week (which would at least get them off "benefit" and onto Working Tax Credit, and earn more money to boot). I'm not arguing the merits of each and every individual case, but surely once society allows that situation to grow to that proportion, we must be getting it wrong somewhere.
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Your Own Personal Jihad
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"It's astonishing that 2.6 million Britons are on incapacity benefit. That's around 1 in 15 of the working-age population."

The figure in the Netherlands is 1-in-9.

[ 11.02.2008, 09:58: Message edited by: Your Own Personal Jihad ]

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You Are The Ref
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Rogin, when was the last time you were in a supermarket? Was it before or after the last time Mick Jagger got the tube? If someone's mental or physical health is fragile, an unskilled customer service job in a supermarket would be about the worst thing you could inflict on them, and would lead to a rapid deterioration in most cases.
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E10Rifle
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Yeah, working in a supermarket's seriously hard work. Get the feckless proles into management consultancy, where it doesn't really matter what you do - and the less of it you do the better for everyone else.
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Bomb A Nero
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quote:
the 4-hour afternoon shift at Lidl, 4 days a week
Doesn't exist. They offer a 15 hour contract and expect you to work at least 30 (without the guarantee that they have to offer you those extra hours), and all shifts are at least 6 hours.

Here's something on Lidl's working conditions:

http://franklludwig.com/lidl.html

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Belhaven
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I think 1 in 15 is an improbably low figure if you're counting the whole working population. You must have really tough welfare laws to get down to that level.
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Duncan Gardner v8.2
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quote:
If someone's mental or physical health is fragile
Not the same as medical unfitness to work, surely?

quote:
an unskilled customer service job in a supermarket
Customer service jobs aren't unskilled

quote:
would be about the worst thing you could inflict on them
Zero hours contracts et al referred above are pretty regressive and slewed in favour of employers, but the actual job itself must be of some benefit to the employee. Lidl don't pay people to work pointlessly

quote:
and would lead to a rapid deterioration in most cases
Evidence?
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You Are The Ref
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quote:
If someone's mental or physical health is fragile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not the same as medical unfitness to work, surely?

Unfitness to work in some jobs, certainly. Including the ones Rogin suggested up top as gentle ways to ease the incapacitated back into work.

quote:
Customer service jobs aren't unskilled
No job is altogether unskilled. 'Unskilled' in this context means pitched in with no prior training to cop flak from the public. It's the employers classification, not mine.

quote:
Evidence?
Mostly anecdotal. I'm not claiming to have the last word on this issue. But if I get time today, I'll try and bolster this a bit with actual facts and evidence.

quote:
but the actual job itself must be of some benefit to the employee.
This needs supporting with evidence as well.

[ 11.02.2008, 13:38: Message edited by: You Are The Ref ]

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Duncan Gardner v8.2
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YATR: I'm making a value judgement, as you'll have realised. I think the job is of value per se, even if the employment relationship is skewed.

I'll admit my own current status (unemployed) does rather contradict the principle, but hey. Come on hirers, ye know ye want me (winks seductively...)

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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
It's astonishing that 2.6 million Britons are on incapacity benefit.
Apparently, there is quite a high percentage of people who are there due to mental problems and, reading inbetween the lines, there are a lot of stress-related cases.

After 3 years of being a house-husband, I have a worrying feeling that I have made myself unemployable

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You Are The Ref
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quote:
Mostly anecdotal
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the Tesco sweets at dawn stocktaking an angry Twix,
Angel Delight hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the supernatural darkness of bottled-water aisles floating across the tops of cities contemplating Daz

[ 11.02.2008, 13:59: Message edited by: You Are The Ref ]

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gerontophile
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If you have even a Christmas job stacking shelves when the store is open, you will be trained in the layout of the store at the very least, because damn sure on your first day, someone is going to ask you "where are the turkeys?" and if its a "secret shopper" and you dont know, it gets marked down against the store, which leads to a lesser bonus between the staff whenever it gets paid.

AND you must answer that question in a certain way every single time, and ask them if they wish you to take them to it etc. Its easy when you know how, but if you are dropped in it, and its your first job in ages, I imagine its bloody nervewracking (if you take any job seriously).

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