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Author Topic: More collective punishment
E10Rifle
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Yeah, as HB has elaborated, I'm not sure what negotiated provisos can realistically amount to when the stuff of life itself is at stake.
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Lucy Waterman It Be
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I really don't see how that is the case, but I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise. If it would make you happy, yes, I've ignored every point you made, that's correct. You are a funny one.
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The Horse
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Well Lucy, you've just blithely re-asserted that we can't know the motives of the Israeli govt (yes we can - there's no other rational explanation for the way the wall was implemented. If it is meant as a defensive measure, it's indefensibly misguided so their motives aren't really relevant), you've totally ignored/not even understood my point about your fixation on suicide bombings, and your last contribution to the discussion about the reasons for Palestinian violence seems to be "I'm sure there may well be lots of moderate Palestinians freedom fighters who try not to kill civilians", which is bland and meaningless in a discussion about terrorism, ie killing civilians.

[ 04.03.2008, 18:00: Message edited by: The Horse ]

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Antonio Gramsci
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Thanks for the map, HB. That helps. And obviously considerations on those rights would have to go into the negotiated settlement and make them extremely complicated and important. My point was that had this occurred - and there is some evidence that the two sides were on their way to that kind of agreement at Taba - then all to the good, no?
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Wyatt Earp
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What Taylor said.
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Hieronymus Bosch
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I've already agreed with you on that point, Antonio, but to be honest I have difficulty believing that the Palestinians would have been dim enough to essentially hand control of their water supply over to their bitterest enemy.
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G-Man
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Lucy, no animus from my side. But you are not cutting a good figure on this thread. On Israel's intentions, The Horse provided a smoking gun: the "security" Wall. If you argue that Israel's intention is not expansionism and land theft, then it would be good to hear your reasoning.
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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G - the "smoking gun" involved an extremely reductive set of assumptions regarding the intentions behind the wall, viz. that since it encroached on Palestinian lands there can have been no defensive intent on the part of its supporters, that all support for the wall in general was for the wall in its eventual form, that all support for the wall was fully inforemd about its nature and whereabouts, that all such support was "rational and logical" rather than based on fear and defensiveness, and that disingenuity on the part of some of its supporters was evidence of bad faith by all.

Now, as it happens, I agree with yours and Horse's, and most of the other stances adopted on this thread against Lucy, the wall, and the Israeli position generally. That doesn't change the fact that many of the arguments made against him* - by Horse in particular - have been rather extreme in their aggressive simplism. And I think Lucy has argued his position with both admirable patience and good will. He cuts a fine, albeit wrong, figure.


*as with phoebe Disco, that always feels weird to type.

[ 04.03.2008, 20:19: Message edited by: The peak of El Toro-quino ]

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G-Man
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I agree that Lucy has cut "a fine, albeit wrong, figure". But the intent of the Wall is clear; there are no assumptions. If the intention was security, then the Wall would take a different form.

Public support for the Wall is a different argument altogether. I think there is a consensus that there is a difference between what the public thinks it supports, and what those in government are doing. It's surely very similar to the neo-Con scaremongering or, perhaps more apposite, the "security" arguments made by the apartheid regime back in the day. But I don't believe that Olmert and his gang believes their own propaganda.

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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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G - you said that Lucy was "not cutting a good figure on this thread". That is all and only what I am disputing here.

And you continue to suppose that "Israel", en masse, possesses one and only one clearly defined and explicit intention/rationale for the building of the wall. This is just the sort of claim that rightly exasperates both you and I when made of the Catholic Church.

But I don't really want to get into this. I think we're basically in agreement, and I've got a thesis to edit.

[ 04.03.2008, 20:26: Message edited by: The peak of El Toro-quino ]

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linus
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quote:
think there is a consensus that there is a difference between what the public thinks it supports, and what those in government are doing. It's surely very similar to the neo-Con scaremongering or, perhaps more apposite, the "security" arguments made by the apartheid regime back in the day.
Unfortunately Gman, I think you might be a bit off here about your assumptions on the Israeli general public, two third of which supports mass deportation of Arabs.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4526

excerpts from article above:

"Regular opinion polls show that about two-thirds of Israelis support transfer, either voluntary or forced, of Palestinian citizens from the state.

Recent polls also reveal how fashionable racism has become in Israel. A survey conducted last year showed that 68 per cent of Israeli Jews do not want to live next to a Palestinian citizen (and rarely have to, as segregation is largely enforced by the authorities), and 46 per cent would not want an Arab to visit their home.

A poll of students that was published last week suggests that racism is even stronger among young Jews. Three-quarters believed Palestinian citizens are uneducated, uncivilised and unclean, and a third are frightened of them. Richard Kupermintz of Haifa University, who conducted the survey more than two years ago, believes the responses would be even more extreme today.

Lieberman is simply riding the wave of such racism and pointing out the inevitable path separation must follow if it is to satisfy these kinds of prejudices. He may speak his mind more than his cabinet colleagues, but they too share his vision of the future."

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The 7th Baron Bartok
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exasperates both you and ME
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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Indeed. A hangover from rephrasing that sentence...
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Bored Of The Dance
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I tell you what, a peaceful outcome to the Palestine situation may not be sorted out here but, more importantly, the grammar is spot on.

Fuck me, Lynne Truss has a lot to answer for

[ 04.03.2008, 22:47: Message edited by: Bored Of The Dance ]

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The Horse
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quote:
G - the "smoking gun" involved an extremely reductive set of assumptions regarding the intentions behind the wall, viz. that since it encroached on Palestinian lands there can have been no defensive intent on the part of its supporters, that all support for the wall in general was for the wall in its eventual form, that all support for the wall was fully inforemd about its nature and whereabouts, that all such support was "rational and logical" rather than based on fear and defensiveness, and that disingenuity on the part of some of its supporters was evidence of bad faith by all.
I made none of those assumptions.

The wall really is quite simple. Build it on or within your own borders: defensive. Use it to grab more land and cause more anger, thus potentially endangering your own people: not defensive. Defence cannot have been the primary intention of the Israeli government. (And if it was, this is so irrational as to make Lucy's attempt to sympathise with the motives while abhorring the actions futile.)

I didn't talk about what the wall's supporters outside the government may or may not think, so those last four points are redundant. As G-Man says, what the public supports, why, and what it thinks it's supporting are all separate questions.

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