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» One Touch Football - Archive » World » More collective punishment (Page 2)

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Author Topic: More collective punishment
Taylor
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"For no apparent reason"??

Should we all base our political sympathies on some kind of moral tombola?

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gerontophile
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if it involves morals, then I should be thinking otherwise, no?

Bollocks, taylor. I only know that whenever I hear of something kicking off in Israel, I hope that there are as few people dead as possible, but that ISRAEL (not pro Jews or pro Muslims) win.

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linus
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It's kind of hard to overcome a lifetime's worth of excellent propaganda.
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E10Rifle
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I think what constitutes Israel "winning" might need defining here. Their collective punishment policies certainly haven't brought them security. And won't.
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Taylor
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Hang on, what's "bollocks"?
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The Batebe of Toro Foundation
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ger - "morals" doesn't (or at any rate, doesn't only or primarily) have to do with where people put their willies. To support, for instance, the shooting of 12-year-old stone-throwing children is deeply, and importantly, immoral.

Moral issues can and must be discussed, moral stances can and must be justified. To refuse to do so, as you are doing, makes it look as though you are engaged in nothing more than cheering for one side in a deeply murderous game of football.

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Hieronymus Bosch
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I have to say, it beats the shit out of me how any rational person could look at the Israel/Palestine situation and conclude that Israel deserved their support.

Gerontophile, your declaration that you are not interested in the actual facts of the situation does you very little credit. You may not be aware of this, but since the second intifada began in 2000, more than three times as many Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli state, as Israelis have been killed by Palestinian groups.

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gerontophile
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I will apologise profusely, again, if I sound like a cheerleader. I dont mean to be. I also dont profess to know that my choice (or lack thereof) is wrong.

'where people put their willies' I hope doesnt matter, and will never do so.


HB: I don't know the facts but am not afraid to listen. Afraid, possibly is not the correct word.

taylor: 'bollocks' was the wrong word to use and the wrong time to use it. I dont have the acumen or will (right now) to back any or all of the above, up.

More to follow

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Wyatt Earp
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Israel will "win" when it achieves a modus vivendi with its neighbours. Most Israelis are aware of this: a huge majority supports negotation with Hamas. But in the Knesset, the crazies always set the agenda, it seems.
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The Moral Animal.
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Wikipedia says that Israelis use the phrase Shoah "to describe all sorts of disasters", and not always necessarily in reference to the Holocaust.

Not that I think that makes it any less of a hideous thing to say, of course.

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Femme Folle
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It's deliberately provocative though, don't you think?
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The Moral Animal.
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Absolutely, and I don't doubt that the cabinet minister in question was aware of how it would be interpreted.
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linus
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Off Wikipedia also, under "genocide":

"While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2 of this defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

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Hieronymus Bosch
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Most Israelis are aware of this: a huge majority supports negotation with Hamas. But in the Knesset, the crazies always set the agenda, it seems.

The Israeli electorate pays lip service to peace-related aspirations in opinion polls, and then, when the chips are down at election time, the majority of them repeatedly opt for right-wingers of various degrees of vehemence.

Three of Israel's last four prime ministers have been extremely aggressively anti-Palestinian, and the semi-exception, Ehud Barak, thrust a piss-poor "peace plan" at Yasser Arafat in Oslo that was deliberately rendered impossible for Arafat to accept.

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G-Man
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Did you see the semi-exception being interviewed on Sky last night? When you start cheering Sky studio interviewers for getting it right , then you know that the interviewee is very, very wrong indeed.

Barak is the defence minister. That is enough to know that he is as evil as the rest of them. And he's the boss of the genocide-touting deputy minister. To my knowledge, he has not distanced himself from that disgusting threat, nor has he taken issue with the loaded term, whether you upper-case or not.

geronto; if you were not such a well-liked person here, I'm suspect you'd suffer a Thread Gaza now (like the civilians of that region, you seem to unarmed as well). Having said that, in the shorthand used on this thread so far, there has been a certain lack of nuance. It isn't an either/or issue. I am "pro-Israel" in as far as I object to Israelis being murdered and in as far as I recognise Israel's right to exist. I am "anti-Palestinian" in as far as I have no high opinion of their leadership and Hamas' theocratic tendencies.

But I understand the Palestinians' historical grievance, having been subjected to ethnic cleansing and political, economic and social disempowerment. I understand why Israelis are getting killed, without condoning it. I understand that Palestinian civilians do not deserve to be killed, and then be relegated to being "collateral damage" (a term Barak used last night). I have seen just some of the injustices Palestinians suffer daily at the hands of Israelis, and these made me very, very angry.

Being unconditionally pro-Israel is as defensible as having been unconditionally pro-white South Africa during apartheid. Winnie Mandela's matchboxes did not invalidate black grievances and aspirations any more than Qassam missiles or the occasional suicide bomber invalidates Palesinian grievances and aspirations.

[ 03.03.2008, 07:23: Message edited by: G-Man ]

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