This board has been transferred to www.wsc.co.uk,

    why not join us there

One Touch Football - Archive   
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» One Touch Football - Archive » World » More collective punishment (Page 6)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  ...  12  13  14   
Author Topic: More collective punishment
SRD
Member
Member # 56

 - posted      Profile for SRD     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
'Terrorism' hardly poses 'the main threat to Israel'. The PLO and other organisations have carried out guerrilla attacks against Israel for over 40 years and, you know, Israel is still there, armed to the teeth.

(I place terrorism in inverted commas above because I think a distinction can be drawn between attacks against the Israeli military and illegal settlements and attacks that deliberately target civilians.)

In any case it's a circular argument, because the Israeli occupation is the prime cause of the 'terrorist' attacks against Israel.

[ 04.03.2008, 14:06: Message edited by: SRD ]

Posts: 609 | From: Kettering, UK | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hieronymus Bosch
Member
Member # 1209

 - posted      Profile for Hieronymus Bosch     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Whether you agree with it or not, its not wholly irrational.
Lucy, why do you reckon that building settlements on Palestinian land makes Israel less likely to be attacked, rather than more?
Posts: 20007 | From: Terrestrial Paradise | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Horse - is it not the case that the main threat to Israel comes from terrorism, rather than invasion?
Er, yes I suppose so. It's a pretty piffling threat. Take out "terrorism" in direct response to Israel's illegal bombings, persecution, oppression and land grabs, and it is/would be virtually non-existent.

Having said that, whenever terrorism against Israel abates (suicide bombings have been very rare for years now, and took a couple of decades to be introduced, for instance), its own terrorism continues apace, so perhaps there's another, secret threat it's responding to that's even bigger.

[ 04.03.2008, 14:08: Message edited by: The Horse ]

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lucy Waterman It Be
Member
Member # 1075

 - posted      Profile for Lucy Waterman It Be     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Take out "terrorism" in direct response to Israel's illegal bombings, persecution, oppression and land grabs, and it is/would be virtually non-existent.

Maybe, but how do you decide which are and aren't? Can you confidently attribute motives to suicide bombers in this way?

Bosch - I don't, but I can see why right-wingers might.

SRD - yeah, it's circular logic, but the same circular logic that applies in any terrorist-programme-against-state situation.

Posts: 2972 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Maybe, but how do you decide which are and aren't? Can you confidently attribute motives to suicide bombers in this way?
It's just common sense. I'm more confident about that than I am with the idea that the Palestinians/Lebanese are simply violent people obsessed with the destruction of Israel, who would continue their attacks (such as they are) were their legitimate grievances to evaporate.

Which suicide bombers, by the way?

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lucy Waterman It Be
Member
Member # 1075

 - posted      Profile for Lucy Waterman It Be     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess "people who are willing to kill themselves and others en masse" as a type.
Posts: 2972 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lucy Waterman It Be
Member
Member # 1075

 - posted      Profile for Lucy Waterman It Be     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
the idea that the Palestinians/Lebanese are simply violent people obsessed with the destruction of Israel
Yeah, that's just racist bizarreness. There are bad people, not "bad ethnic groups".
Posts: 2972 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But if you accept that, surely you have to accept that attacks on Israel would decrease or disappear were Israel to stop killing people and taking away their land, homes, freedom and resources.

The suicide bombers question was merely getting at the fact that such attacks are held up as being a dread threat to Israel despite their rarity. There was one a couple of months ago which was international news, because before that there hadn't actually been one for ages. Casually talking about "suicide bombers" is one indication of how the threat to Israel is exaggerated.

[ 04.03.2008, 15:03: Message edited by: The Horse ]

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
boris
Member
Member # 80

 - posted      Profile for boris     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The whole Palestine/Israel situation makes me terribly depressed (which I realise is a very minor feeling compared to what the civilians of Gaza must be going through). I think G-Man's post at the foot of page 2 is a very good one, as is WE's about being pro-Israeli but anti-bombing (which I guess is, boiled down, my own stance). I was bought up in an environment which considered the kibbutzim as socialism in action, where the Jewish National Fund had full donation boxes in the living room, and where even the most radical left-wingers would support Israel to the hilt. Now, it's all gone so New Labour - the kibbutzim are first and foremost commercial enterprises, the JNF is the Israeli equivalent of far-right fundraisers, and Israel quite rightly is anathema to the left.

Someone wake me up when everything's right with the world, please.

Posts: 8617 | From: the safe house | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G-Man
Member
Member # 104

 - posted      Profile for G-Man     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lucy, I cannot see any way the settlements could be defended as a security measure without putting on a grotesque spin.

Those who really believe that Israeli expansionism can be dressed up persuasively as a security measure are as deluded as those who believe the US invaded Iraq to introduce true democracy.

My God, we haven't even brought up the "security" Wall yet.

Posts: 22308 | From: one floor to another | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, the Wall is the clincher, really. It's there to stop terrorists getting into Israel. Is it built on the border? Slightly within the border, just to make sure, perhaps with a trench or moat in front of it? No, it encroaches on Palestinian land all over the shop, forcing them to live in isolated enclaves, with many inhabitants unable to get to their place of work, study etc.

Rational justification for that: none.

[ 04.03.2008, 15:18: Message edited by: The Horse ]

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
G-Man
Member
Member # 104

 - posted      Profile for G-Man     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the hope that Facebook pics work here, a photo I took of the Wall in Bethlehem in 2006.

 -

Posts: 22308 | From: one floor to another | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lucy Waterman It Be
Member
Member # 1075

 - posted      Profile for Lucy Waterman It Be     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But if you accept that, surely you have to accept that attacks on Israel would decrease or disappear were Israel to stop killing people and taking away their land, homes, freedom and resources.
I don't see that that follows. The evidence suggests that there are a significant number of problematic nutters within the Palestinian population.

As to the number of suicide bombings, or whether months go by in between them - they are still a clear and present danger to the people of the country, far more so than in London, for example.

Posts: 2972 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wyatt Earp
Member
Member # 108

 - posted      Profile for Wyatt Earp     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure I buy the stuff about "pretexts". I don't think the Israelis are being aggressive for the sake of it, and thinking up rationales to cover themselves. I'm sure the feeling of siege is real. And I doubt it feels "piffling".

But there are always reasons why countries do things; that doesn't make the stuff they do right.

[ 04.03.2008, 15:45: Message edited by: Wyatt Earp ]

Posts: 19927 | From: the Cryptic Cabal | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Horse
Member
Member # 27

 - posted      Profile for The Horse     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
As to the number of suicide bombings, or whether months go by in between them - they are still a clear and present danger to the people of the country, far more so than in London, for example.
That's quite a low bar you've set there. They're more in danger from suicide bombers than Londoners? Oooooooh.

quote:
I don't see that that follows. The evidence suggests that there are a significant number of problematic nutters within the Palestinian population.
I said "decrease or disappear", so the logic holds. Unless you think that this nutty hardcore of bombers just plough on independently of Israel's actions and would continue were Israel to stop acting the cunt.

[ 04.03.2008, 15:46: Message edited by: The Horse ]

Posts: 8111 | From: London | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  ...  12  13  14   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WSC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2

    This board has been transferred to www.wsc.co.uk,

    why not join us there