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Author Topic: More collective punishment
Antonio Gramsci
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I believe this book is considered the gold standard in studies on suicide bombings. The conclusion, in two sentences:

quote:
The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland.


[ 04.03.2008, 17:07: Message edited by: Antonio Gramsci ]

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boris
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quote:
The thing is, that doesn't even begin to justify the recent and current actions of Israel, which don't even make sense in terms of self-preservation. If they stopped acting the cunt, any further aggression against them would be seen for what it was, and the entire picture would change. To what degree, we don't know - but that's not even the point. Ceasing to act the cunt has to be the first priority, and makes sense not just morally but politically. Continued cunt-acting, at the very least, means we have to question Israel's aims here.
I think part of the problem is that acting the cunt has become so entrenched in Israel's policies towards the Palestinians (and other Arabs within Israel) that for them to stop acting the cunt would require such a huge shift in Israeli political thought that it's almost self-defeating - politicians would consider it an unelectable platform, and they're probably correct. Unfortunately, that's almost certainly why we'll never see Peretz given a chance to test his dovish policies.
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Lucy Waterman It Be
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quote:
Lucy's underlying assumption above is that fanaticism and savagery are inherent Palestinians ethnic and religious attributes. It's not clearly spelled out, but inferred.
If it's inferred, it's only because you have chosen to infer it. It's a nonsense reading. I did say the opposite. Read again. There are bad people, not bad ethnic groups.
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E10Rifle
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quote:
In the end, both sides know that a final deal has to look something very much like what was on offer at the end of 2000 when Clinton, Arafat and Barak were meeting all the time
What, the deal that offered the Palestinians unviable cantons pock-marked with ever-expanding settlements?
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You Are The Ref
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Is it Amir (P)eretz, Minister of Defence during the 2006 invasion of Lebanon you're referring to there boris?
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Lucy Waterman It Be
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quote:
But again, you're talking about "suicide bombers" despite the rarity of suicide attacks. This fixation is a bit sinister. It indicates that your view of the Palestinians isn't far from the racist bizarreness you were criticising before. Not all Palestinians are violent psychopaths, it seems - just the ones who fight back.
I'm not equating dissent with being a violent psychopath. I'm equating being a violent psychopath with being a violent psychopath. And I've no idea why my talking about suicide bombings "indicates" any such thing. I think you're making a logical leap there, but I'll assume it's well-intentioned rather than an attempt to smear.
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Bored Of The Dance
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quote:
quote:
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Unless you think that this nutty hardcore of bombers just plough on independently of Israel's actions
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If you think these guys are thinking "I was going to kill myself and others, but now my political ideals have been met I'm not a psychopath anymore", it strikes me you're willing to imagine a lot of nobility on their part at the same time as having the lowest expectations of the motives of the Israelis.

Well, apart from the suicide bit, you coudl have said the same thing about McGuiness/Adams or the ANC.

People probably did and, indeed, probably still hold these suspicions.

It is a glib comparison (maybe not with the tone of this thread) but you can't help but look at NI or SA and see a lot of comparisons and wonder why the Israelis, if they really want peace, can't

G-man's point about the Winnie Mandela's sins being used to deflect away form apartheid rings true with the current rocket attacks. (Apolgies is I am misrepresenting you, G-man)

The Qassam rockets really are only on a par with the necklacing compared to what Israel is doing. Very very wrong but no reaason to damn the whole movement

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Antonio Gramsci
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E10 - The camp david offer in July 2000 left the West bank in two pieces. However, the Taba offer (january 2001) left palestininan territories quite continguous.

Maps here.

At the time talks broke off, Israel was arguing for the annexation of 6% of the west bank (the bits in purple), and was offering in return about half this much territory inside Isarel proper. Though this was never agreed even in principle, the Palestinians had countered that they might consider a land swap if the size of the areas to be swapped were equal.

[ 04.03.2008, 16:52: Message edited by: Antonio Gramsci ]

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The Horse
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quote:
And I've no idea why my talking about suicide bombings "indicates" any such thing. I think you're making a logical leap there, but I'll assume it's well-intentioned rather than an attempt to smear.
Suicide bombings are rare, but you're talking as if they're not - which is indicative of worrying underlying assumptions about Palestinians, or those Palestinians who resort to violence. It's a broad-brush dismissal of their actions as those of people who can't be negotiated with or appeased. It's the classic aggressor's logic: attack someone, and if they fight back throw your hands up and say, "Look, these people are congenitally violent, what can we do?" The implication that the Palestinians are a nation (with a hardcore) of nutters intent on blowing themselves up through blind hatred, ignoring the fact that suicide bombings are actually very rare, is part of this.
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G-Man
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It is ridiculous to compare the 7/7 bombers with Palestinian suicide bombers, other than within the broad context quoted by Gramsci above.

You cannot even ascribe invariably identical motivation to the Palestinian suiciders (as they are apparently called in the West Bank). The hatred has many different roots and shades. The common thread, however, is a on-going history of systematic dehumanisation (for want of a better term) by Israeli policies and attendant arbitrary treatment.

I know a fellow who lives just outside East Jerusalem. He is the antithesis of the terrorist image. Clean-cut, western, Christian. His place of work is in East Jerusalem, about 10 minutes by car (with East Jersalem licence plate) from his home. His daughter attends school nearby, also in East Jerusalem. To reach East Jerusalem, my friend has to go through a checkpoint. Whether he is allowed to proceed depends on the arbitrary judgment of the checkpoint guards. Some days he might get through, other days he might not. Needless to say, his work suffered, and so did his daughter's schooling.

To avoid the obstruction to his livelihood -- and, perhaps more importantly, the daily humiliation at the hands of pimply IDF lads -- he now does a hours-long detour via Hebron, entering Jerusalem from the west via a checkpoint where chances of being denied entry to the place of his work -- and his birth -- are fewer.

My friend is better off than most Palestinians. But he is boiling with rage. He won't blow up a pizza joint, and he wants peaceful coexistence with Israelis. But he is angry.

What about people who suffer much greater hardships and humiliations than my friend? People who recall the ethnic cleansing pre-1948 their parents or grand-patrents suffered (did you know that Palestinians are now a minority in Jaffa, the Arab neighbour of Tel Aviv?); people who are being systematically dispossessed and disempowered; people who are being spat at by Israelis; people whose villages are being cut off because the authorities have designated the roads leading to the village for use by Israelis only?

If that was my life, I'd think that suicide bombings are quite justifiable. Because I've been dehumanised, not because I have a religious axe to grind.

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E10Rifle
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AG, but that six per cent, if I'm not mistaken, happened to be the most fertile an economically advantageous bits. And the settlement-building kept going on throughout all this. Are you edging towards the standard argument that the 2000 conflagrations were all Arafat/The Palestinians' fault?
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The Horse
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quote:
I'm not equating dissent with being a violent psychopath.
I'm not sure what that means, but this looks like exactly what you describe:
quote:
If you think these guys are thinking "I was going to kill myself and others, but now my political ideals have been met I'm not a psychopath anymore", it strikes me you're willing to imagine a lot of nobility on their part

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Bored Of The Dance
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That's an eye-opening quote, Antonio. Is the rest of the book worth reading?

By the way, could you and Purves delete the remaining three posts from Page 3. Not for any other reason than to satisfy the OCD completist in me. I will then edit this accordingly

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Antonio Gramsci
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Two things, E10.

1) I'm not blaming anyone at all. I'm not sure Israel was in a position to say "yes" to anything convincingly given that they were in the middle of elections. I do think that if it is true that Arafat broke things off because he decided he couldn't sell a divided Jerusalem to his people (I'm not sure if this is the case, but it is a story I've heard) then it would at least be fair to say that Arafat was probably wasting everybody's time because a final status is going to have to involve (IMHO) some kind of sovereignty-sharing arrangement.

2) on the fertility of the land, etc. I've heard that, too, but I don't know anything about it one way or the other. Though provided that both sides arrive at a negotiated compensation arrangement, I can't see that this matters much.

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Lucy Waterman It Be
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quote:
I'm not equating dissent with being a violent psychopath.
I'm not sure what that means, but this looks like exactly what you describe:
quote:
If you think these guys are thinking "I was going to kill myself and others, but now my political ideals have been met I'm not a psychopath anymore", it strikes me you're willing to imagine a lot of nobility on their part

No, not at all. The point of the second quote is that the two things are separate.
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